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Peterdjones comments on By Which It May Be Judged - Less Wrong
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"some other M" will still count as morality for many purposes, because self-serving ideas ("be loyal to the Geniralissimo", "obey your husband") are transmitted thorugh the same memetic channels are genuine morality. Morality is already blurred with disgust reactions and tribal shibboleths.
What is the difference between "self-serving ideas" as you describe, "tribal shibboleths" and "true morality" ?
What if "Peterdjones-true-morality" is "PeterisP-tribal-shibboleth", and "Peterdjones-tribal-shibboleth" is "PeterisP-true-morality" ?
universalizability
That's not sufficient - there can be wildly different, incompatible universalizable morality systems based on different premises and axioms; and each could reasonably claim to be that they are a true morality and the other is a tribal shibboleth.
As an example (but there are others), many of the major religious traditions would definitely claim to be universalizable systems of morality; and they are contradicting each other on some points.
Maybe. But in context it is onlhy necessary, since in context the point is to separate out the non-etchial cclams which have been piggybacked onto ethics.
That's not obvious.
The points they most obviouslty contradict each other on tend to be the most symbolic ones, about diet and dress, etc.
OK, for a slightly clearer example, in the USA abortion debate, the pro-life "camp" definitely considers pro-life to be moral and wants to apply to everyone; and pro-choice "camp" definitely considers pro-choice to be moral and to apply to everyone.
This is not a symbolic point, it is a moral question that defines literally life-and-death decisions.
I would dispute this. Kant's second formulation of the Categorical Imperative is pretty clearly contradictory to some of the universalisable commandments given by versions of theistic morality.
Examples?
Ermm...what's the teaching that says covetousness is fine? Ayn Rand?
If that is taken to mean the Jewish Sabbath specifically, that is a shibboleth. If it is taken broadly to mean "holdiays are good" ot "you need to take a break", who disagrees?
Ah, no, I wasn't being clear enough.
Both these commandments talk about other people as means to ends, rather than only as ends, which is a violation of Kant's Categorical Imperative, as I mentioned in the great-grandfather. The bolded parts are the main offenders.
Why? And, perhaps more importantly, how do you know that this is the case?
Very true, but I'm not sure why you posted this as a reply to that comment.
Theres motivation to redefine morality, and reason to think it stil is in some sense morality once it has been redefined. Neither is true of maths.
Oh, I see. So your comment basically said "True, but it's easy to inadvertently treat this "other M" as morality."