timtyler comments on By Which It May Be Judged - Less Wrong

35 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 10 December 2012 04:26AM

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Comment author: timtyler 29 December 2012 01:33:09PM *  0 points [-]

Unfortunately, this logical fact does not correspond to the truth-condition of any meaningful proposition computed by Clippy in the course of how it efficiently transforms the universe into paperclips, in much the same way that rightness plays no role in that-which-is-maximized by the blind processes of natural selection.

Evolution via natural selection is what gave you your moral sense in the first place. That is the result of selection on your ancestors' genes, selection on memes and selection on structures in your brain. Morailty exists today because the genes and memes supporting it had good reproductive success in the past. Science even understands how selection favoured human moral systems these days - via a mixture of genetic and cultural kin selection, reciprocity, reputations and symbiology.

Comment author: MugaSofer 29 December 2012 10:08:40PM -1 points [-]

Science even understands how selection favoured human moral systems these days - via a mixture of genetic and cultural kin selection, reciprocity, reputations and symbiology.

Um, no. There are a variety of postulated mechanisms, most (all?) of which are little more than just-so stories - from group selection to game theory. It is probable that the actual mechanism(s) have been suggested already, but Science does not know if that is the case. If it turned out tomorrow that aliens fell from the sky and gave us morality as an experiment then that would would be surprising based on the prior probability, but it wouldn't contradict anything in the scientific literature.

Comment author: timtyler 29 December 2012 10:45:35PM *  0 points [-]

There are a variety of postulated mechanisms, most (all?) of which are little more than just-so stories - from group selection to game theory.

Kin selection and reciprocity are "just so stories"? Hmm. Have fun with that step back into the scientific dark ages. Scientists know a lot about why humans cooperate and behave in a moral manner.

If it turned out tomorrow that aliens fell from the sky and gave us morality as an experiment then that would would be surprising based on the prior probability, but it wouldn't contradict anything in the scientific literature.

Right - but the "aliens did it" explanation is a lot like the "god did it" one. Tremendously unlikely - but not completely disprovable. Most scientists don't require such a high degree of certainty.

Comment author: MugaSofer 30 December 2012 12:34:27PM *  -1 points [-]

Kin selection and reciprocity are "just so stories"? Hmm. Have fun with that step back into the scientific dark ages.

Obviously, kin selection can be a genuine phenomenon in the right circumstances. So can group selection, although it's obviously much rarer. (I'm afraid I don't know as much about reciprocity, but I assume the same is true for that.) But while just-so stories like "populations that help each other will last longer" or "you are more likely to encounter relatives, so helping everyone you meet is a net win" may sound reasonable, to humans, but evolution is not swayed by such arguments.

Scientists know a lot about why humans cooperate and behave in a moral manner.

Source?

Right - but the "aliens did it" explanation is a lot like the "god did it" one. Tremendously unlikely - but not completely disprovable. Most scientists don't require such a high degree of certainty.

If we already knew and understood reasons why morality would evolve, and we learned that it was actually aliens, then that would mean that we were mistaken about said reasons (unless the aliens just simulated our future evolution, if you're fighting the counterfactual.)

Comment author: timtyler 30 December 2012 01:41:54PM *  -1 points [-]

Kin selection and reciprocity are "just so stories"? Hmm. Have fun with that step back into the scientific dark ages.

Obviously, kin selection can be a genuine phenomenon in the right circumstances. So can group selection, although it's obviously much rarer.

The modern scientific consensus is that kin selection and group selection are equivalent, explain the same set of phenomena and make the same predictions. For details of this see here. This has cleared up many of the issues relating to group selection - though there are still disagreements regarding what terminology and methodology it is best to use - and things like whether we really need two frameworks.

Scientists know a lot about why humans cooperate and behave in a moral manner.

Source?

Well, this is from my reading of the literature. Darwinism and Human Affairs laid out the basics in 1979. Some things have changed since then, but not the basics. We know more about the role of culture and reputations these days. Whitfield's "reputations" book has a good summary of the literature there.

A nice summary article about modern views of cooperation is here. Human cooperation is similar, but with culture and reputations playing a larger role.

Of course there are still disagreements in the field. However, if you look at recent books on the topic, there is also considerable consensus:

I'm not clear about why the "aliens did it" hypothesis is worth continued discussion. Scientists don't think that aliens gave us our moral sense. The idea reminds me more of medieval theology than science. All manner of bizarre discoveries could refute modern scientific knowledge in a wide range of fields. But in most cases, the chances of that happening look very slender. In which case: so what?

Comment author: wedrifid 31 December 2012 03:50:30AM *  2 points [-]

The modern scientific consensus is that kin selection and group selection are equivalent, explain the same set of phenomena and make the same predictions.

This seems suspiciously similar to saying "kin selection exists and group selection basically doesn't" but with less convenient redefinition of "group selection".

Comment author: timtyler 01 January 2013 01:21:16PM *  0 points [-]

They can't be equivalent if group selection doesn't exist - since kin selection is well established orthodoxy.

Both the kin selection and group selection concepts evolved after being invented. This is normal for scientific concepts: our ideas about gravity and light evolved in a similar manner.