Vaniver comments on Ritual Report 2012: Life, Death, Light, Darkness, and Love. - Less Wrong

20 Post author: Raemon 23 December 2012 06:56PM

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Comment author: SaidAchmiz 24 December 2012 03:00:33AM 7 points [-]

Thank you; I appreciate your response. Based on what daenerys wrote, I think that my response breaks down as follows:

  1. Using ritual to insert things deep into your psyche is something that I think is just bad. Using writings on rationality as sermons, reciting litanies about truth by candelight, etc., misses the point and is dangerous because it attaches you to the views and propositions in question too closely.

  2. Using ritual as group bonding... I don't understand the motivation, to be honest. I acknowledge that it probably works, I just can't understand why you'd want to do it. This is, of course, a personal preference, not any kind of criticism per se.

  3. The above two points notwithstanding, I find rituals very icky and offputting (especially, upon reflection, when they have an (explicitly?) religious feel to them!). This is the case regardless of whether the purpose is worthwhile and whether the ritual effectively serves the purpose.

From your linked post:

Some people may be turned off. Skeptics who specifically turned to rationality to escape mindless ritual that was forced upon them may find this all scary.

This describes me. Not literally; I never (well, almost never) had any mindless rituals forced upon me, but I don't like mindless ritual and enjoy the rationalist perspective for absence thereof.

Quality, intelligent individuals may come to our website, see an article about a night of ritual and then tune out and leave.

I haven't tuned out, but I do find it offputting, as I mentioned.

I think this is an acceptable cost to pay. Because for good or for ill, most humans like emotional things that aren’t strictly rational. ... There are smart cynics who will be turned off, but there are also smart idealists who will be drawn to recognizable human emotional arcs.

I find this view unfortunate. Not just for the personal reason that you're describing my reaction as an acceptable cost (which I can understand, even if it makes me somewhat sad), but because I don't agree with your framing. I don't think I'm a cynic. I consider myself rather idealistic. I'm not sure why you think only cynics would be turned off by such things.

The rest of your post largely doesn't address my concerns, I'm afraid. bryjnar's comment here is fairly close to my own views, and the responses don't seem at all satisfactory to me.

I am beginning to suspect that this may be a fairly fundamental difference in preferences.

Comment author: Vaniver 24 December 2012 04:45:45PM 1 point [-]

Using ritual to insert things deep into your psyche is something that I think is just bad.

Bad as in morally wrong, epistemically wrong, or instrumentally wrong?

Comment author: SaidAchmiz 24 December 2012 04:55:33PM 3 points [-]

Instrumentally wrong.

Comment author: Vaniver 24 December 2012 05:31:13PM 2 points [-]

Thanks for clarifying.

Rereading your statement, the word "insert" jumps out at me. Would you endorse this modified statement?

Using ritual to preserve things deep in your psyche is something that I think is just bad.

Or would the badness depend on which things you're preserving?