prase comments on Ritual Report 2012: Life, Death, Light, Darkness, and Love. - Less Wrong
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I considered not posting this comment, because it seems like you guys (and Raemon especially) have put a lot of effort into this, but I do want to sort out my response to this whole thing. Please don't take this as judgment; I'd really like to hear input about whether my reaction is wholly unwarranted, and why or why not.
When I read about this event (and I had a similar reaction to reading about last year's one, too), I get a strong sense of "ick"; a deep and profound feeling of being creeped out. I mean, you're designing and instituting a ritual. Intentionally. Why on earth would you do something like that?
From Yvain's review:
Whyyyyyyyy????
Why not just get together and hang out and... I don't know. Play party games? Talk? Watch movies? Why a ritual?
Ok, I thought I knew what a Schelling Point is, but this usage puzzles me a bit. If I'm interpreting it right, though, my question is... why do this?
Is it because some (most?) of the people involved come from religious backgrounds, and miss the holiday rituals that took place in their families?
By the way, what happens if people present don't want to participate in the songs? Is there social pressure? I know I'd feel pretty darn uncomfortable if I was at a gathering and everyone started a collective sing-along.
Separately and unrelatedly, I really feel rather unsettled by the fact that you're using Eliezer's writings as a kind of... I don't know, mass? Sermon? It seems to me like that's taking entirely the wrong message away from all of it... to actually enshrine it as a sacred tradition or ritual of some sort.
I lurk on the OB/LW NYC mailing list, and you guys seem like pretty interesting people (I've been to one or two of the "public" meetups that were like... 1-2 years ago, now?); once in a while I think that maybe I should try and come to some of your meetups on occasion.
Stuff like this pushes me away. That's probably unfortunate, so if someone from the group (or whoever, really) could explain this whole ritual business to me, I would appreciate it.
I'd like to say that I have similar feeling concerning this.
Even if I wouldn't probably feel bad participating in any ritual, the described things (candles, people crying, reciting texts by Yudkowsky) are completely incompatible with my taste. Perhaps it is the apparent absolute lack of humor and the exalted seriousness which is most off-putting for me.
There really wasn't a lack of humor, it just doesn't translate very well into a blog post. In person, my natural demeanor is high energy and silly, most of the time. When writing, for some reason it comes much easier to write seriously. Writing comedically is something I need to work on.
It may be that this would feel less offputting to some people if I had done emphasized other parts of the ceremony more. However, part of the biggest selling point of the night is that we (the NY group, and most other LW folk I've met), are generally pretty fun, often funny in self-depreciating ways. So having a night that starts with that, yes, but which also builds to something powerful and profound is a novel, interesting experience. People came from across state lines to experience something that isn't normally a part of their lives at all.
Yvain touched on this elsewhere - we (the broader American western culture, in general) are really good at being ironic and silly and fun. We're not really good at taking serious, important things seriously. I set this in motion because I thought it was something I didn't get nearly enough of, that I wanted and that other people seemed to want too.