army1987 comments on Intelligence explosion in organizations, or why I'm not worried about the singularity - Less Wrong

13 Post author: sbenthall 27 December 2012 04:32AM

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Comment author: gwern 28 December 2012 04:55:12PM 1 point [-]

Um. If your "fundamental law" has all these exceptions, that's a good hint that maybe it isn't as fundamental as you thought. The law of gravity doesn't have exceptions. And no, it's not always better to "have the law". Sometimes it is, for practical reasons, and sometimes it's better to devise a better law that doesn't give you so many false positives.

You're missing the point too. Even gravity has exceptions - yes, really, this is a standard topic in philosophy of science because the Laws Of Gravity are so clear, yet in practice they are riddled with exceptions and errors. We have errors so large that Newtonians were forced to postulate entire planets to explain them (not all of which turned out as well as Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto), we have errors which took centuries to be winkled out, and of course errors like Mercury which ultimately could be explained only by an entirely new theory.

And we're talking about real-world statistics: has there ever been a sociology, economics, or biological allometry paper where every single data point was predicted perfectly without any error whatsoever? (If you think this, then perhaps you should consult Tukey and Cohen on how 'the null hypothesis is always false'.)

If we ignore all of that, we get superlinear scaling; but my guess is that if we include it, we would get sublinear scaling as usual -- in terms of overall economic output per single human.

Absolutely; if you measure in certain ways, diminishing returns has clearly set in for humanity. And yet, compared to hunter-gatherers, we might as well be a Singularity.

What does this tell you about the relevance of diminishing returns to Singularity discussions? (Chalmers's Singularity paper deals with this very question, IIRC, if you are interested in a pre-existing discussion.)

Comment author: [deleted] 29 December 2012 03:34:54PM 1 point [-]

Even gravity has exceptions - yes, really, this is a standard topic in philosophy of science because the Laws Of Gravity are so clear, yet in practice they are riddled with exceptions and errors.

What are you talking about?

Comment author: gwern 29 December 2012 08:39:49PM 1 point [-]

I gave multiple examples and specified the field interested in how such a naive formulation is completely wrong; please ask better questions.

Comment author: AlexMennen 29 December 2012 10:09:25PM *  1 point [-]

I gave multiple examples

No, you did not. Your examples are all consistent with our best current exceptionless theory of gravity (general relativity) and knowledge of the composition of our solar system (Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto). You merely hinted at the existence of additional examples that perplexed the Newtonians. In fact, since our current understanding of gravity is better than the Newtonians', hinting at the existence of examples that perplexed the Newtonians fails to even suggest a flaw in our best current theory, not to mention suggesting the existence of "exceptions to gravity". Please give at least one real example.

Comment author: gwern 29 December 2012 10:20:38PM 2 points [-]

Nobody brought up relativity as the issue; the fact remains that every theory is incomplete and a work in progress, and a few errors is not disproof especially for a statistical generalization. You would not apply this ultra-high standard of 'the theory must explain every observation ever in the absence of any further data or modifications' to anything else discussed on LW, and I do not understand why either you or army1987 think you are adding anything to this discussion about cities exhibiting better scaling than corporations.

Comment author: AlexMennen 29 December 2012 11:21:54PM 1 point [-]

You said that gravity has exceptions. I'm not quite sure what that's supposed to mean, but the only interpretation I could think of for that statement is that our current best theory of gravity (namely, general relativity) fails to predict how gravity behaves in some cases. I did not mean to suggest that any theory must explain every observation correctly to be useful, nor did I mean to imply anything about how well cities and corporations scale. I was merely pointing out that you falsely asserted that you had given examples of exceptions to gravity, when you had in fact you had only given examples of exceptions to Newtonian gravity as it would operate in a solar system similar but not identical to ours.

Comment author: [deleted] 30 December 2012 02:45:58AM 0 points [-]

 I do not understand why either you or army1987 think you are adding anything to this discussion about cities

I saw what sounded to me like an extraordinary claim (though it turns out I misunderstood you) so I went WTF.

Comment author: [deleted] 29 December 2012 08:51:03PM *  0 points [-]

I have never heard of any observation showing that gravitation as described by general relativity (and, so long as you aren't very close to something very massive and aren't travelling at a sizeable fraction of the speed of light, excellently approximated by Newton's law) might have "exceptions" on Solar System-scale, except possibly the Pioneer anomaly (for which there is a very plausible candidate explanation) and similar. When I read "errors" I hoped you meant measurement uncertainties, but I can't make sense of the rest of the paragraph assuming you did.

Comment author: gwern 29 December 2012 09:09:44PM 0 points [-]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_science#Duhem-Quine_thesis may help you a little bit. You should probably read the entire article, since you seem to think there were no errors or exceptions, and that some exceptions could disprove a power law.

Comment author: [deleted] 30 December 2012 02:37:05AM *  1 point [-]

I think I know what you mean, but if I'm right, "gravity has exceptions" is, let's say, a very bizarre way of putting it.

EDIT: yeah, you meant what i thought you meant.

Comment author: AlexMennen 29 December 2012 10:16:14PM 1 point [-]

There are no examples of failures of general relativity in that entire article. So far, of the two of you, only army1987 has given an example of an even slightly perplexing observation.

Comment author: gwern 29 December 2012 10:18:45PM 0 points [-]

Why should I give one? I never brought up relativity, army1987 did.

Comment author: [deleted] 30 December 2012 02:31:48AM 1 point [-]

You brought up the Laws Of Gravity (capitals yours), which among insiders are known as the Einstein field equations of general relativity.