gwern comments on This Failing Earth - Less Wrong

19 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 24 May 2009 04:09PM

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Comment author: gwern 25 May 2009 07:58:45PM 2 points [-]

OK, so India shows us one way which doesn't work so well. What should we make of other examples?

I'm sure everyone here has read at least a little about the Ashkenazi researches. What did the Jewish ghettos get right? Was the selection pressure too weak in Indian society in general? Or was shooting for multiple targets a bad thing - maybe the Sudras mixed too much with Brahmins and the net effect was nil.

Comment author: Annoyance 26 May 2009 09:36:11PM 1 point [-]

Respectfully, you're making a very big assumption there - that anything at all was "got right".

Before concluding that the eugenic forces the molded the Ashkenazi were beneficial, you should ask yourself: What did they lose?

It's very rare indeed that a population-level genetic change can take place without some tradeoffs being made.

Comment author: gwern 26 May 2009 11:06:57PM 2 points [-]

Before concluding that the eugenic forces the molded the Ashkenazi were beneficial, you should ask yourself: What did they lose?

(Well, maybe I overestimated how much people know about the Ashkenazi.)

What they got was a ridiculously high average IQ (I've seen between 120 and 130). What the population paid for this was a ridiculously high rate of diseases related to the central nervous system.

Comment author: Annoyance comment score below threshold [+] (15 children)

Comment author: Alicorn 27 May 2009 08:34:49PM 6 points [-]

Kindly stop being cryptic. It's irritating and patronizing. You are not teaching a class of fourth graders in whom you are obliged to instill the virtue of academic independence.

Comment author: Annoyance comment score below threshold [+] (13 children)

Comment author: Cyan 28 May 2009 07:30:33PM * 2 points [-]

I will treat you as as an intelligent and informed person who is capable of independently recognizing and deriving points, who I am required to not try to lead by the nose, and simply state that the parent contains a blisteringly obvious logical flaw, and that spotting that flaw will answer your question.

Comment author: Alicorn 28 May 2009 07:39:41PM * 2 points [-]

"Intelligent and informed" is highly compatible with "not willing to devote X amount of time to learning about the Ashkenazi population and their deficits in comparison to other European groups to compensate for the laziness and/or carelessness and/or rudeness of a poster easily capable of sharing that tidbit of data". You are not just leaving off the last line in a simple syllogism or neglecting to define a common word here. This is an obscure fact in an obscure area on a blog that does not select for an audience of geneticists or rabbis or whatever area of expertise is relevant to your point.

Comment author: thomblake 28 May 2009 08:17:56PM 0 points [-]

Alicorn, you seem to be missing the conversation that was happening here. Annoyance was responding to a comment by gwern, who said:

(Well, maybe I overestimated how much people know about the Ashkenazi.)

indicating that he could assume gwern had a great deal of knowledge about the subject. I don't think it's appropriate to criticize him for not explaining things for the benefit of those not already involved in the conversation.

Comment author: Alicorn 28 May 2009 08:33:32PM * 1 point [-]

How many nesting comments should there be, before I should assume that the conversation is semiprivate and I may not participate and consider myself a member of the audience on this public blog? Or is it some cue other than levels of nesting? (I would genuinely like to know, if you think I have run afoul of some convention, what that convention is.) I made my initial comment here because my curiosity was piqued and I was annoyed by the bizarre coyness around the thing it made me curious about.

Comment author: thomblake 28 May 2009 09:41:20PM 0 points [-]

Kindly stop being cryptic. It's irritating and patronizing. You are not teaching a class of fourth graders in whom you are obliged to instill the virtue of academic independence.

Unless I'm missing something, this was your first contribution to the discussion. Is this seriously your idea of participating in the conversation? Apparently out of the blue, you referred to Annoyance as "cryptic", "irritating", "patronizing", and implied that he thought he was teaching 4th-graders.

4th-graders clearly were not the intended audience of the comment. The person to whom he responded, who clearly knows about the Ashkenazi, was. If you're missing something in the exchange, feel free to ask for clarification.

Consider a similar (hypothetical) situation where folks are having a conversation involving some advanced math, and you come along and berate them for not including explanations for those that haven't been exposed to it before.

continue this thread »

Comment author: Annoyance comment score below threshold [+] (0 children)

gwern comments on This Failing Earth - Less Wrong

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