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PrawnOfFate comments on The Hidden B.I.A.S. - Less Wrong
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Thanks. It's not mine - here is the origin of "un-asked" AFAIK http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(negative) I think there are sequences with similar concepts here. Of course, we use it everyday with N/A.
You aren't the only one affected, but there is a large population of unaffected people on this site. You'll want to try and overcome B.I.A.S. on a gut level, if possible. I think that the moment you fully understand the relationship between the mind and the rest of the universe, the intuitive preference for dualist thinking goes away. I think for many people there is one moment when it all just clicks into place.
Want to try?
If so, let me first establish what you're definitions are and make sure that you aren't confused about any of the important things before proceeding.
1) Universe - deterministic, random or some third thing? Is there even a third option? What is a universe anyway? Is it governed by logic? Can anything not be governed by logic?
2) Free will - Make a coherent definition. What does your answer to the previous question mean for free will? If you prefer to say that there is no free will, explain why (or whether) it feels like you have free will.
Here are more, but don't answer them yet if you found (1) and (2) difficult.
3) "I think therefore I am" - agree, disagree, or deconstruct?
4) Qualia - why does it happen? What's subjective experience? Why do you experience things from a specific point of view? Can you be certain that I have qualia?
If you don't have good answers (or unaskings) for these questions, your B.A.I.S. is most likely due to some logical issue and can be fixed. If you have good answers... I'm not sure what happens then, maybe we look at it from another perspective to convince whatever part of you is still holding out.
If you are interested in playing, answer my questions or unask them. I'll just keep going till we reach the very bottom, and hopefully at the end you'll come out free of any alief in mind-body dualism at a gut level. If this actually succeeds, it will be pretty interesting...at worst we'll waste a bit of time.
So far I've played this game one other person. Midway through our discussion he described on instance of depersonalization and it was fleeting and unpleasant. We didn't continue (loss of interest, time constraints). I was aiming more for ego death, but I guess depersonalization is pretty close. To paraphrase, he said "I just saw things way too clearly for a moment...I just saw myself from the outside. "
I would very much like to see things way too clearly...
Dealing with the local, classical physics universe that my body's senses are adapted to perceive, I'd have to go with "third option" in the "time-loaf" sense. I suspect that MWI is true, so yes to random which one this is, but deterministic in its worldline. To me, logic is shorthand for what is actually permissible in nature. We just are not so good at defining the rules yet. Something can only appear to not be governed by logic through lack of proper resolution of the measurements.
I think that any sufficiently detailed understanding of physics renders the existence of person-level free will meaningless. Our savanna-dwelling ancestors had no need for such an understanding. We animals ascribe agency to all kinds of wacky shit, including these bodies. Hence, the ego. I don't feel like I'm being controlled, because in the macro sense, I'm not. The universe just runs, it doesn't have feelings or a way of doing anything but what it actually does; and what it actually does determines what I am able to do.
Some people think physics renders FW non-existent, some think it doesn't. Most of them provide a definition of FW so that you can see how the conclusion is drawn. But you said that physics renders FW meaningless. How does that even work? I read a dfictionary definition, the meaning of the word is not in my mind, .... then someone in a lab makes a discovery, and the meaning disappears.
I will answer your question, but I do not understand your last statement; it looks like you retyped it several times and left all the old parts in.
I meant that with a sufficiently detailed understanding of physics, it would be meaningless to even posit the existence of (strong) free will. By meaningless here I mean a pointless waste of one's time. I was willing to clarify, but deep down I suspect that you already knew that.
Uh-huh. So "meaningless" means "very false". Although there are physically based models of Free WIll
I take it that you're nitpicking my grammar because you disagree with my views.
As for what topic I am talking about, it is this: In the most practical sense, what you did yesterday has already happened. What will you do five minutes from now? Let's call it Z.. Yes, as a human agent the body and brain running the program you call yourself is the one who appears to make those decisions five minutes from now, but six minutes from now Z has already happened. In this practical universe there is only one Z, and you can imagine all you like that Z could have been otherwise, but six minutes from now, IT WASN'T OTHERWISE. There may be queeftillions of other universes where a probability bubble in one of your neurons flipped a different way, but those make absolutely no practical difference in your own life. You're not enslaved to physics, you still made the decisions you made, you're still accountable according to all historical models of accountability (except for some obscure example you're about to look up on Wikipedia just to prove me wrong), and you still have no way of knowing the exact outcomes of your decisions, so you've got to do the best you can on limited resources, just like the rest of us. "Free Will" is just a place-holder until we can replace that concept with "actual understanding", and I'm okay with that. I understand that the concept of free-will gives you comfort and meaning in your life, but "I have no need of that hypothesis."