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randallsquared comments on CEV: a utilitarian critique - Less Wrong
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The point you quoted is my main objection to CEV as well.
Right now there are large groups who have specific goals that fundamentally clash with some goals of those in other groups. The idea of "knowing more about [...] ethics" either presumes an objective ethics or merely points at you or where you wish you were.
Objective? Sure, without being universal.
Human beings are physically/genetically/mentally similar within certain tolerances; this implies there is one system of ethics (within certain tolerances) that is best suited all of us, which could be objectively determined by a thorough and competent enough analysis of humans. The edges of the bell curve on various factors might have certain variances. There might be a multi-modal distribution of fit (bimodal on men and women, for example), too. But, basically, one objective ethics for humans.
This ethics would clearly be unsuited for cats, sharks, bees, or trees. It seems vanishingly unlikely that sapient minds from other evolutions would also be suited for such an ethics, either. So it's not universal, it's not a code God wrote into everything. It's just the best way to be a human . . . as humans exposed to it would in fact judge, because it's fitted to us better than any of our current fumbling attempts.
It does not imply that there exists even one basic moral/ethical statement any human being would agree with, and to me that seems to be a requirement for any kind of humanity-wide system of ethics. Your 'one size fits all' approach does not convince me, and your reasoning seems superficial and based on words rather than actual logic.
All humans as they currently exist, no. But is there a system of ethics as a whole that humans, even currently disagreeing with some parts of it, would recognize as superior at doing what they really want from an ethical system that they would switch to it? Even in the main? Maybe, indeed, human ethics are so dependent on alleles that vary within the population and chance environmental factors that CEV is impossible. But there's no solid evidence to require assuming that a priori, either.
By analogy, consider the person who in 1900 wanted to put together the ideal human diet. Obviously, the diets in different parts of the world differed from each other extensively, and merely averaging all of them that existed in 1900 would not be particularly conducive to finding an actual ideal diet. The person would have to do all the sorts of research that discovered the roles of various nutrients and micronutrients, et cetera. Indeed, he'd have to learn more than we currently do about them. And he'd have to work out the variations to react to various medical conditions, and he'd have to consider flavor (both innate response pathways and learned ones), et cetera. And then there's the limit of what foods can be grown where, what shipping technologies exist, how to approximate the ideal diet in differing circumstances.
It would be difficult, but eventually you probably could put together a dietary program (including understood variations) that would, indeed, suit humans better than any of the existing diets in 1900, both in nutrition and pleasure. It wouldn't suit sharks at all; it would not be a universal nutrition. But it would be an objectively determined diet just the same.
The problem with this diet is that it wouldn't be a diet; it would be many different diets. Lots of people are lactose intolerant and it would be stupid to remove dairy products from the diet of those who are not. Likewise, a vegetarian diet is not a "variation" of a non-vegetarian diet.
Also, why are you talking about 1900?
I think the fact that humans can't agree on even the most basic issues is pretty solid evidence. Also, even if everyone had the same subjective ethics, this still would result in objective contradictions. I'm not aware of any evidence that this problem is solvable at all.
Why not include primates, dolphins, rats, chickens, etc. into the ethics?
The existence of moral disagreement is not an argument against CEV, unless all disagreeing parties know everything there is to know about their desires, and are perfect bayesians. Otherwise, people can be mistaken about what they really want, or what the facts prescribe (given their values).
'Objective ethics'? 'Merely points... at where you wish you were'? "Merely"!?
Take your most innate desires. Not 'I like chocolate' or 'I ought to condemn murder', but the most basic levels (go to a neuroscientist to figure those out). Then take the facts of the world. If you had a sufficiently powerful computer, and you could input the values and plug in the facts, then the output would be what you wanted to do best.
That doesn't mean whichever urge is strongest, but it takes into account the desires that make up your conscience, and the bit of you saying 'but that's not what's right'. If you could perform this calculation in your head, you'd get the feeling of 'Yes, that's what is right. What else could it possibly be? What else could possibly matter?' This isn't 'merely' where you wish you were. This is the 'right' place to be.
This reply is more about the meta-ethics, but for interpersonal ethics, please see my response to peter_hurford's comment above.
The fact that people can be mistaken about what they really want is vanishingly small evidence that if they were not mistaken, they would find out they all want the same things.
A very common desire is to be more prosperous than one's peers. It's not clear to me that there is some "real" goal that this serves (for an individual) -- it could be literally a primary goal. If that's the case, then we already have a problem: two people in a peer group cannot both get all they want if both want to have more than any other. I can't think of any satisfactory solution to this. Now, one might say, "well, if they'd grown up farther together this would be solvable", but I don't see any reason that should be true. People don't necessarily grow more altruistic as they "grow up", so it seems that there might well be no CEV to arrive at. I think, actually, a weaker version of the UFAI problem exists here: sure, humans are more similar to each other than UFAI's need be to each other, but they still seem fundamentally different in goal systems and ethical views, in many respects.