Decius comments on A brief history of ethically concerned scientists - Less Wrong

68 Post author: Kaj_Sotala 09 February 2013 05:50AM

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Comment author: Decius 09 February 2013 11:49:06PM 5 points [-]

Better than developing ethical scientists would be a policy of developing ethical political and military leaders.

Comment author: Nebu 15 February 2013 04:13:36PM 0 points [-]

Better for whom? I'd really like my rival countries to have ethical military leaders, but maybe I prefer my own country's military leaders to be ruthless.

Comment author: CCC 16 February 2013 05:50:18AM 2 points [-]

I would prefer my own country's miilitary leaders to be ethical as well, personally. A ruthless military leader may:

  • Attempt to overthrow the government
  • Declare war on a nearby country that he thinks he can defeat
  • Subvert military supply lines in order to unethically increase his personal wealth

...all of which are behaviours I do not prefer.

Comment author: Decius 15 February 2013 11:46:19PM 1 point [-]

Do you defect in iterated prisoners' dilemma?

Comment author: Nebu 16 February 2013 03:42:32AM *  1 point [-]

No, but I'm not sure military conflicts are necessarily iterated, especially from the perspective of me, an individual civilian within a nation.

Comment author: Decius 16 February 2013 07:42:05AM 0 points [-]

But the selection of military leaders is iterated.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 23 February 2013 01:35:47PM 1 point [-]

But the selection of military leaders is iterated.

Most of us are not in a position to ever select a military leader, let alone do it an indefinite number of times.

Comment author: Decius 23 February 2013 10:58:08PM 1 point [-]

Most adult US citizens are in a position to have nonzero input into the selection of the person who determines military policy.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 24 July 2014 08:52:31PM 3 points [-]

Sure, and most adult US citizens are in a position to have nonzero input into the selection of today's weather by choosing to open their door with the AC on or not. Nonzero is a very small hurdle indeed.

Comment author: Decius 27 July 2014 09:52:10PM 0 points [-]

An interesting voting mechanism, if it allows a preference that /everyone/ has to not be expressed in the outcome because each individual has a small overall effect.

Comment author: Nebu 19 February 2013 06:33:14PM 1 point [-]

I'm afraid I don't see the relevance.

Comment author: Decius 20 February 2013 02:47:12AM 0 points [-]

I think the payoff matrix of warfare is very analogous to the PD payoff matrix, and that the previous (and even current) military leaders are available to all serious players of the game. Also, anticipate that others might make irrational decisions, like responding to a WMD attack with a WMD reprisal even if it doesn't benefit them; they might also make rational decisions, like publicly and credibly precommitting to a WMD reprisal in the even of a WMD attack.

Comment author: Nebu 06 March 2013 02:57:33PM 0 points [-]

I'm still not following you.

So first of all, you'll need to convince me that the payoff matrix for an individual civilian within a nation deciding who their military leader should be is similar to one of the prisoners in PD. In particular, we'll need to look at what "cooperate" and "defect" even mean for the individual citizen. E.g. does "cooperate" mean "elect an ethical military leader"?

Second, asuming you do convince me that the payoff matrices are similar, you'll have to clarify whether you think warfare is iterated for an individual civilian, especially when the "other" nation defects. I suspect if my leader is ethical, and their leader is not, then I will be dead, and hence no iteration for me.

Thirdly, you may wish to clarify whether all the sentences after your first are intended to be new assertions, or if they are supposed to be supporting arguments for the first sentence.

Comment author: Decius 07 March 2013 05:56:36AM 0 points [-]

Vastly simplified:

Survival is worth three points, destroying the opposing ideology is worth two points, and having at least one survivor is worth twenty points.

If nobody uses WMDs, everyone gets 23 points. If one side uses WMDs, they survive and destroy their idealogical opponent for 25 points to the opposing 20. If both sides use WMDs, both score 2 for destroying the opponent.

Given that conflicts will happen, a leader who refuses to initiate use of WMDs while convincing the opponent that he will retaliate with them is most likely to result in the dual-cooperate outcome. Therefore the optimum choice for the organism which selects the military leaders is to select leaders who are crazy enough to nuke them back, but not crazy enough to launch first.

If you share the relative ranking above (not-extinction>>surviving>wiping out others), then your personal maximum comes from causing such a leader to be elected (not counting unrelated effects on e.g. domestic policy). The cheapest way of influencing that is by voting for such a leader.

Comment author: Nebu 14 April 2013 03:10:53PM *  0 points [-]

What's the difference between "Survival" and "having at least one survivor"?

The way I see it:

  • If I'm dead, 0 points.
  • If I'm alive, but my city got nuked, so it's like a nuclear wasteland, 1 point.
  • If I'm alive, and living via normal north american standards, 2 points.

We're assuming a conflict is about to happen, I guess, or else the hypothetical scenario is boring and there are no important choices for me to make.

The question is not "Do I elect a crazy leader or a non-crazy leader?", but rather, "Do I elect a leader that's believes 'all's fair in love and war?' or a leader that believes in 'always keep your word and die with honor'?"

I.e. if you think "ethical vs unethical" means "will retaliate-but-not-initiate vs will not retaliate-but-not-intiiate", then it's no wonder why we're having communication problems.

Comment author: BillyOblivion 20 February 2013 07:04:08AM 0 points [-]

Is ruthlessness necessarily unethical in a military leader?

Sometimes compassion is a sharp sword.

Comment author: Bugmaster 20 February 2013 07:10:14AM 0 points [-]

Agreed; as Sun Tzu points out on several occasions, fighting should usually be considered a measure of last resort.