shiftedShapes comments on Realism : Direct or Indirect? - Less Wrong

3 Post author: kremlin 13 February 2013 09:40AM

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Comment author: savageorange 13 February 2013 11:54:18PM *  0 points [-]

its formulation strikes me as dishonest, as only primary sensory experience can be confirmed to exist by the experience itself. All other facts about the world are subject to uncertainty.

...

"Indirect realism is broadly equivalent to the accepted view of perception in natural science that states that we do not and cannot perceive the external world as it really is but know only our ideas and interpretations of the way the world is." -- linked wikipedia page

I'm having difficulty seeing what you mean. It seems, while awkwardly phrased, a straightforward proposition with much evidence and little counter-evidence behind it. What seems dishonest about its formulation to you?

Comment author: shiftedShapes 14 February 2013 03:19:29AM 0 points [-]

All of the evidence that could be produced would just be a subset of one experiences. If a means of transmission is only reliable to a certain limited extent then the media transmitted could approach the limits of that channel's reliability, but never surpass it.

Comment author: savageorange 14 February 2013 10:26:10AM 0 points [-]

And.. the description implies that is not the case?

What you have said seems like a straightforward consequence of indirect realism.

To put it another way:

If dishonesty is occurring, what, exactly, is being concealed?

Comment author: shiftedShapes 14 February 2013 04:05:59PM 0 points [-]

The primary nature of first person experience.

Comment author: savageorange 15 February 2013 02:33:25AM *  0 points [-]

The primary nature of first person experience

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we do not and cannot perceive the external world as it really is but know only our ideas and interpretations of the way the world is. -- wikipedia article

Nope, that's exactly what is explicitly claimed.

Comment author: shiftedShapes 15 February 2013 02:43:25AM 0 points [-]

Direct realism should reference the reality of one's most direct experiences and not a concept that can only be understood indirectly, the "external world," through direct experience.

Comment author: savageorange 15 February 2013 05:59:40AM *  0 points [-]

I assume you mean indirect realism, since that's what that quote is about.

Am I to take it, then, that you would approve of a statement revised to read:

"Indirect realism is broadly equivalent to the view that states that we can know only our ideas and interpretations of the way the world is, and cannot obtain any knowledge directly from reality."

Comment author: shiftedShapes 15 February 2013 01:20:56PM -1 points [-]

I meant direct

Comment author: savageorange 15 February 2013 02:17:06PM *  -1 points [-]

So, right at the beginning of this thread, you meant 'direct'. And you never corrected this misunderstanding, even after I repeatedly talked about indirect realism in my replies?

Comment author: shiftedShapes 15 February 2013 02:34:44PM 0 points [-]

No when I said indirect I meant that as well. My problem is that they both use "reality" to reference a theoretical construct that arguably none of us have ever experienced.

Comment author: David_Allen 14 February 2013 04:35:40AM 0 points [-]

If a means of transmission is only reliable to a certain limited extent then the media transmitted could approach the limits of that channel's reliability, but never surpass it.

Actually, error free communication can be established over any channel as long as there is some level of signal (plus some other minor requirements).

But perhaps I'm misunderstanding the point you are making?

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