private_messaging comments on Bayesian Adjustment Does Not Defeat Existential Risk Charity - Less Wrong

43 Post author: steven0461 17 March 2013 08:50AM

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Comment author: CarlShulman 19 April 2013 08:03:42PM *  4 points [-]

But we don't yet to have a clear, mathematically precise way to explain why we should also respond negatively to "give me a dollar, and I'll use my Matrix Lord powers to save 3^^^3 lives."

Yes, we do: bounded utility functions work just fine without any mathematical difficulties, and seem to map well to the psychological mechanisms that produce our intuitions. Objections to them are more philosophical and person-dependent.

The problem with Pascal's mugging doesn't lie merely in the particular hoped-for payoff, it's that in extreme combinations of small chance/large payoff, the complexity of certain hypotheses doesn't seem sufficient to adequately (as per our intuitions) penalize said hypotheses.

If we are going to be invoking intuition, then we should be careful about using examples with many extraneous intuition-provoking factors, and in thinking about how the intuitions are formed.

For example, handing over $1 to a literal Pascal's Mugger, a guy who asks for the money out of your wallet in exchange for magic outputs, after trying and failing to mug you with a gun (which he found he forgot at home), is clearly less likely to get a big finite payoff than other uses of the money. The guy is claiming two things: 1) large payoffs (in things like life-years or dollars, not utility, which depends on your psychology) are physically possible 2) conditional on 1, the payoffs are more likely from paying him than other uses of money. Realistic amounts of evidence won't be enough to neutralize 1), but would easily neutralize 2).

Heuristics which tell you not to pay off the mugger are right, even for total utilitarians.

Moreover, many of our intuitions look to be heuristics trained with past predictive success and delivery of individual rewards in one's lifetime. If you save 1000 lives, trillions of person-seconds, you will not get billions of times the reinforcement you would get from eating a chocolate bar. You may get a 'warm glow' and some social prestige for success, but this will be a reward of ordinary scale in your reinforcement system, not enough to overcome astronomically low probabilities. So learned intuitions will tend to move you away from what would be good deals for an aggregative utilitarian, since they are bad deals in terms of discounted status and sex and chocolate.

Peter Singer argues that we should then discount those intuitions trained for non-moral purposes. Robin Hanson might argue that morality is overrated relative to our nonmoral desires. But it is worth attending to the processes that train intuitions, and figuring out which criteria one endorses.

Comment author: private_messaging 19 April 2013 08:16:17PM *  -1 points [-]

Yes, we do: bounded utility functions work just fine without any mathematical difficulties

And so does speed prior.

Realistic amounts of evidence won't be enough to neutralize 1), but would easily neutralize 2).

Yes. I have an example of why the intuition "but anyone can do that" is absolutely spot on. You give money to this mugger (and similar muggers), then another mugger shows up, and noticing doubt in your eyes, displays a big glowing text in front of you which says, "yes, i really have powers outside the matrix". Except you haven't got the money. Because you were being completely insane, by the medical definition of the term - your actions were not linked to reality in any way, and you failed to consider the utility of potential actions that are linked to reality (e.g. keep the money, give to a guy that displays the glowing text).

The intuition is that sane actions should be supported by evidence, whereas actions based purely on how you happened to assign priors, are insane. (And it is utterly ridiculous to say that low probability is a necessary part of Pascal's wager, because as a matter of fact, probability must be high enough.) . I have a suspicion that this intuition reflects the fact that generally, actions conditional on evidence, have higher utility than any actions not conditional on evidence.