CCC comments on Welcome to Less Wrong! (5th thread, March 2013) - Less Wrong

27 Post author: orthonormal 01 April 2013 04:19PM

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Comment author: JohnH 13 April 2013 05:30:49PM *  0 points [-]

Some of that might be because of evaporative cooling. Reading the sequences is more likely to cause a theist to ignore Less Wrong then it is to change their beliefs, regardless of how rational or not a theist is. If they get past that point they soon find Less Wrong is quite welcoming towards discussions of how dumb or irrational religion is but fairly hostile to those that try and say that religion is not irrational; as in this welcome thread even points that out.

What I am wondering about is why it seems that atheists have complete caricatures of their previous theist beliefs. What atomliner mentions as his previous beliefs has absolutely no relation to what is found in Preach My Gospel, the missionary manual that he presumably had been studying for those two years, or to anything else that is found in scripture or in the teachings of the church. So are the beliefs that he gives as what he previously believed actually what he believed and if so what did he think of the complete lack of those beliefs being found in scripture and the publications of the church that he belonged to and where did he pick up these non standard beliefs? Or is something else entirely going on when he says that those were his beliefs?

This doesn't limit itself to atomliner; in my experience generally when atheists talk about their previous religion they seem to have always held (or claim they did) some extremely non-standard version of that religion. So is this a failure of the religion to communicate what the actual beliefs are, a failure of the ex-theist to discover what the beliefs of the religion really are and think critically about, in Mormon terms, "faith promoting rumors" (also known as lies and false doctrine, in Mormon terms), or are these non-standard beliefs cobbled together from "faith promoting rumors" after the atheist is already an atheist to justify atheism?

I know that atheists can deal with a lot of prejudice from believers about why they are atheists so I would think that atheists would try and justify their beliefs based on the best beliefs and arguments of a religion and not extreme outliers for both, as otherwise it plays to the prejudice. Or at least come up with something that actually are real beliefs. For any ex-Mormon there are entire websites of ready made points of doubt which are really easy to find, there should be no need to come up with such strange outlier beliefs to justify oneself, and if justifying isn't what he is doing then I am really very interested in knowing how and why he held those beliefs.

Comment author: CCC 13 April 2013 09:29:20PM 1 point [-]

Some of that might be because of evaporative cooling. Reading the sequences is more likely to cause a theist to ignore Less Wrong then it is to change their beliefs, regardless of how rational or not a theist is.

I agree intuitively with your second sentance (parsing 'beliefs' as 'religious beliefs'); but as I assign both options rather low probabilities, I suspect that it isn't enough to cause much in the way of evaporative cooling.

but fairly hostile to those that try and say that religion is not irrational

I haven't really seen that hostility, myself.

This doesn't limit itself to atomliner; in my experience generally when atheists talk about their previous religion they seem to have always held (or claim they did) some extremely non-standard version of that religion.

Hmmm. It seems likely that the non-standard forms have glaring flaws; close inspection finds the flaws, and a proportion of people therefore immediately assume that all religions are equally incorrect. Which is flawed reasoning in and of itself; if one religion is flawed, this does not imply that all are flawed.

Comment author: MugaSofer 14 April 2013 06:33:01PM -2 points [-]

but fairly hostile to those that try and say that religion is not irrational

I haven't really seen that hostility, myself.

I think John means "hostility" more in the sense of "non-receptiveness" rather than actively attacking those who argue for theism.

This doesn't limit itself to atomliner; in my experience generally when atheists talk about their previous religion they seem to have always held (or claim they did) some extremely non-standard version of that religion.

Hmmm. It seems likely that the non-standard forms have glaring flaws; close inspection finds the flaws, and a proportion of people therefore immediately assume that all religions are equally incorrect.

Yup, this seems to fit.

Comment author: JohnH 14 April 2013 07:04:30PM 2 points [-]

Being called a moron seems hostile to me, just to use an example right here.

Comment author: CCC 14 April 2013 07:18:02PM 1 point [-]

That was certainly hostile, yes. However, I take the fact that the post in question is at -10 karma to suggest that the hostility is frowned upon by the community in general.

Comment author: MugaSofer 15 April 2013 11:10:40AM -1 points [-]

Sorry, I should have specified "except for Kawoomba".

Comment author: CCC 14 April 2013 06:58:53PM 0 points [-]

I think John means "hostility" more in the sense of "non-receptiveness" rather than actively attacking those who argue for theism.

Ah. To my mind, that would be 'neutrality', not 'hostility'.

Comment author: MugaSofer 15 April 2013 11:30:51AM -2 points [-]

Ironically, this turned out not to be the case; he was thinking of Kawoomba, our resident ... actually, I'd assumed he only attacked me on this sort of thing.

Comment author: CCC 15 April 2013 05:32:23PM 0 points [-]

Ironically, this turned out not to be the case

A common problem when one person tries to explain the words of another to a third party, yes.

Funny thing - I had a brief interaction over private messaging with Kawoomba on the subject of religion some time back, and he seemed reasonable at the time. Mildly curious, firmly atheistic, and not at all hostile.

I'm not sure if he changed, or if he's hostile to only a specific subcategory of theists?

Comment author: MugaSofer 19 April 2013 02:25:23PM -2 points [-]

As I said, I'd assumed it was just me; we got into a rather lengthy argument some time ago on whether human ethics generalize, and he's been latching onto anything I say that's even tangentially related ever since. I'm not sure why he's so eager to convince me, since he believes his values are incompatible with mine, but it seems it may have something to do with him pattern-matching my position with the Inquisition or something.