Jack comments on Welcome to Less Wrong! (5th thread, March 2013) - Less Wrong

27 Post author: orthonormal 01 April 2013 04:19PM

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Comment author: [deleted] 13 May 2013 06:56:42PM *  3 points [-]

Hello, Less Wrong world. (Hi, ibidem.)

I'm pretty new here. I heard about this site a few months ago and now I've read a few sequences, many posts, and all of HP:MoR.

About a week ago I created an account and introduced myself on the Open Thread along with a difficult question. Some people answered my question helpfully and honestly, but most of them mostly just wanted to argue. The discussion, which now includes over two hundred comments, was very interesting, but at the end it appeared we just disagreed about a lot of things.

It began to be clear that I don't fully accept some important tenets of the thinking on this site—I warned I might fundamentally disagree—but a few community members became upset and decided to make me feel unwelcome on the site. My Karma dropped from 6 (+13, -7) to -25 in just a couple hours, and someone actually came out and told me I'd better leave the site for good. (Don't let this person's status influence your opinion of the appropriateness of such a comment, in either direction.)

Don't worry, I'm not offended. I knew there might be a bit of backlash (though one can always hope not, because there doesn't have to be) and I'm certainly not going to be scared away by one openly hostile user.

Now, before everyone reads the comments and takes sides because of the nature of the issue, I'd like to think about how and why this all happened. I have several different ways of thinking about it ("hypotheses"):

  1. The easy justification for those opposing me is to blame my discourse: my opinions are not a problem as long as I present them reasonably. However, I have consistently been "incoherent" etc. and that's why I got downvoted. Never mind that I managed to keep up hundreds of comments' worth of intelligent discussion in the meantime.

  2. The "contrarian" hypothesis: I am a troll. I never had anything helpful or constructive to say, and in fact everyone who participated in my discussion (e.g. shminux, TheOtherDave, Qiaochu_Yuan) ought to be downvoted for engaging with me.

  3. The "enforcer" hypothesis: I came in here as a newbie, unaware that actually substantive disagreement is highly discouraged. The experienced community members were just trying to tell me that, and decided that being militant and aggressive would be the best way to do so.

  4. The "militant atheist" hypothesis: my opinions are mostly fine, but I managed to really touch a nerve with a few people, who started unnecessarily attacking me (calling me irrational) and making the entire LW community look unreasonable and intolerant.

  5. The "martyr" hypothesis: The LW community as a whole is not open to alternate ways of thinking, and can't even say so honestly. They should have been nicer to me.

What do you think? Which of these are most accurate? Other explanations?

Here is a link to my original comment.

These are the most honest and helpful responses I received,

and this is the most hostile one.

My generally impression has been—trying not to offend anyone—that the thinking here is sometimes pretty rigid.

I have found that there is a general consensus here that belief in God (and even a possibility that there could be a God) is fundamentally incompatible with fully rational thinking. (Though people have been reluctant to admit it because I personally think it's unhealthy and reflects poorly on the site.)

But in any case, I've enjoyed the discussion and I'd guess that some other people have too. I'm definitely not going to leave as some have tried to coerce me to do; I like the way of thinking on this site, and it's the best place I know of to find smart people who are willing to talk about things like this. I'll keep reading at the very least.

I'm still undecided as to what I think generally of the people here.

Yours truly,

ibid.

(Oh, and I'm a Mormon. And intend to remain that way in the near future.)

Comment author: Jack 13 May 2013 09:41:36PM *  13 points [-]

I think probably none of those hypotheses are correct. I think you mean well and I think your comments have been stylistically fine. I also obviously don't think people here are are opposed to substantive disagreement, close-minded or intolerant (or else I wouldn't have stuck around this long). What you've encountered is a galaxy sized chasm of inferential distance. I'm sure you've had a conversation before with someone who seemed to think you knew much less about the subject than you actually did. You disagree with him and try to demonstrate you familiarity with the issue but he is so behind he doesn't even realize that you know more than he does.

I realize it is impossible for this not to sound smug and arrogant to you: but that is how you come off to us. Really, your model of us, that we have not heard good, non-strawman arguments for the existence of God is very far off. There may be users who wouldn't be familiar with your best argument but the people here most familiar with the existence of God debate absolutely would. And they could almost certainly fix whatever argument you provided and rebut that (which is approximately what I did in my previous reply to you).

To the extent that theism is ever taken under consideration here it is only in the context of the rationalist and materialist paradigm that is dominant here. E.g. We might talk about the possibility of our universe being a simulation created by an evolved superintelligence and the extent to which that possibility mirrors theism in it's implications. Or (as I take it shminux believes) about how atheism is, like religion, just a special case of privileging the hypothesis. But you don't appear to have spent enough time here to have added these concepts to your tool box and outside that framework the theism debate is old-hat to nearly all of us. It's not that we're close minded: it's that we think the question is about as settled as it can be.

Moreover, while this is a place that discusses many things, we don't enjoy retreading the basics constantly. So while a number of us politely responded to answer your question, an extended conversation about theism or our ability to consider theism is not really welcome. This isn't because we are unwilling to consider it: it's because we have considered it and now want to discuss newer ideas.

You don't have to agree with this perspective. Maybe you feel like you have evidence and concepts that we're totally unfamiliar with. But bracket those issues for now. It is nothing that will be resolvable until you've gotten to know us better and figured out how you might translate those concepts to us. So if you want to stick around here you're welcome to. Learn more about our perspective, become familiar with the concepts we spend time on and feel free to discuss narrower topics that come up. But people here aren't generally interested in extended debates about God with newcomers. That's why you've been down voted. Not because we're against dissent, just because we're not here to do that. There are lots of places on the internet dedicated to debating theism.

Don't mind wedrifid's tone. That's the way he is with everyone. But take his actual point seriously. Don't preach your way of thinking until you've become a lot more familiar with our way of thinking. And a new handle at some point wouldn't be a terrible idea.

Comment author: shminux 13 May 2013 09:59:19PM *  2 points [-]

Well put. I agree with all of this, except maybe for the need for a new nick, as people who appear to learn from their experience ("update on evidence", in the awkward local parlance) are likely to be upvoted more generously.

Comment author: Intrism 13 May 2013 10:20:11PM *  0 points [-]

I'm sure Ibidem could get more upvotes, perhaps even a great number of them, but negative one-hundred and twenty-eight is an awfully steep karma hill to climb.

Comment author: Desrtopa 13 May 2013 10:30:59PM 3 points [-]

Chaosmosis has a few hundred karma now after dropping at least that deep, being accused of being a troll, and facing a number of suggestions that he leave. It's certainly not un-doable.

Comment author: [deleted] 14 May 2013 07:36:39PM 1 point [-]

Good, thank you.

However, it's important to note that I did not come in here expressly arguing my religion. I recognize how bad an idea that would be, and you've explained it well. So of course, anyone aiming to convert this lot of atheists is certainly going to fail. But that was * never * my goal, and in fact I never argued in favor of my particular God.

Look at my very first comment—it was not "this is why you are wrong," it was "do you guys have any ideas how you could be wrong?" and the response was "no, we're definitely not wrong." My first comment presented a question, albeit a difficult one.

I mentioned up front that I was religious, though, as I don't think trying to hide it would have helped anything. The community was therefore eager to argue with me, and I was happy to argue for some time. At the end, though, it was clear we simply disagreed and I said several times I wasn't interested in a full-blown debate about religion.

To summarize, you just gave a very good explanation of why I was mistaken to come on here arguing for religion. But I didn't come on here arguing for religion.

Really, your model of us, that we have not heard good, non-strawman arguments for the existence of God is very far off.

I'll tell you what made me think that: I asked the community if they had any good, non-strawman arguments for God, and the overwhelming response was "Nah, there aren't any."

Comment author: Bugmaster 14 May 2013 07:46:06PM 3 points [-]

I asked the community if they had any good, non-strawman arguments for God, and the overwhelming response was "Nah, there aren't any."

Well, if there were any that we knew of, then no one here would remain an atheist for very long. We'd all convert to whichever religion made the most sense, given the strength of its arguments. IMO you should have anticipated such a response, given that atheists do, in fact, still exist on this site.

So far, we have heard many terrible arguments for religion (we're talking logical fallacies galore), and few if any good ones. Thus, we are predisposed to thinking that the next argument for religion is going to be terrible, as well, based on past experience.

Comment author: Intrism 14 May 2013 10:41:56PM *  3 points [-]

I'll tell you what made me think that: I asked the community if they had any good, non-strawman arguments for God, and the overwhelming response was "Nah, there aren't any."

I'm not sure if anyone's brought this up yet, but one of the site's best-known contributors once ran a site dedicated to these sorts of things, though it does of course have a very atheist POV. That said, even there the arguments aren't amazingly convincing (which you can guess by the fact that lukeprog hasn't reconverted yet) though it does acknowledge that the other side has some very good debaters.

I'm not sure why you think it's indicative of a problem with us that we haven't found good arguments for the existence of God. It's not a law that there be good arguments in favor of false propositions. I suppose you could make the naïve argument that if the position were as indefensible as it seems no one would believe in it, but unfortunately not many people judge arguments very rationally.