Furslid comments on We Don't Have a Utility Function - Less Wrong

43 [deleted] 02 April 2013 03:49AM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (123)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: [deleted] 02 April 2013 04:56:37PM 1 point [-]

On what basis do you assert you were "reasoned out" of that position?

I'll admit it's rather shaky and I'd be saying the same thing if I'd merely been brainwashed. It doesn't feel like it was precipitated by anything other than legitimate moral argument, though. If I can be brainwashed out of my "terminal values" so easily, and it really doesn't feel like something to resist, then I'd like a sturdier basis on which to base my moral reasoning.

For example, what about your change of mind causes you to reject a conversation metaphor?

What is a conversation metaphor? I'm afraid I don't see what you're getting at.

The other way you might respond is that you have realized that you still value freedom, but have recently realized it is not a terminal value. But that makes the example less useful in figuring out how actual terminal values work.

I still value freedom in what feels like a fundamental way, I just also value hierarchy and social order now. What is gone is the extreme feeling of ickyness attached to authority, and the feeling of sacredness attached to freedom, and the belief that these things were terminal values.

The point is that things I'm likely to identify as "terminal values", especially in the contexts of disagreements, are simply not that fundamental, and are much closer to derived surface heuristics or even tribal affiliation signals.

I feel like I'm not properly responding to your comment though.

Comment author: Furslid 02 April 2013 05:18:32PM 6 points [-]

Nyan, I think your freedom example is a little off. The converse of freedom is not bowing down to a leader. It's being made to bow. People choosing to bow can be beautiful and rational, but I fail to see any beauty in someone bowing when their values dictate they should stand.