OrphanWilde comments on Open Thread, April 15-30, 2013 - Less Wrong

4 Post author: diegocaleiro 15 April 2013 07:57PM

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Comment author: [deleted] 16 April 2013 02:19:15AM 7 points [-]

I have a super dumb question.

So, if you allow me to divide by zero, I can derive a contradiction from the basic rules of arithmetic to the effect that any two numbers are equal. But there's a rule that I cannot divide by zero. In any other case, it seems like if I can derive a contradiction from basic operations of a system of, say, logic, then the logician is not allowed to say "Well...don't do that".

So there must be some other reason for the rule, 'don't divide by zero.' What is it?

Comment author: OrphanWilde 16 April 2013 02:36:38AM -1 points [-]

We divide by zero all the time, actually; derivatives are the long way about dividing by zero. We just work very carefully to cancel the actual zero out of the equation.

The rule is less "Don't divide by zero", as much as "Don't perform operations which delete your data." Dividing by zero doesn't produce a contradiction, it eliminates meaning in the data. You -can- divide by zero, you just have to do so in a way that maintains all the data you started with. Multiplying by zero eliminates data, and can be used for the same destructive purpose.

Comment author: [deleted] 18 April 2013 01:29:29PM 4 points [-]

The rule is less "Don't divide by zero", as much as "Don't perform operations which delete your data." Dividing by zero doesn't produce a contradiction, it eliminates meaning in the data. You -can- divide by zero, you just have to do so in a way that maintains all the data you started with.

I completely fail to understand how you got such a doctrine on dividing by zero. Mathematics just doesn't work like that.

Comment author: OrphanWilde 18 April 2013 01:35:09PM *  0 points [-]

Are you denying this as somebody with strong knowledge of mathematics?

(I need to know what prior I should assign to this conceptualization being wrong. I got it from a mathematics instructor, quite possibly the best I ever had, in his explanation on why canceling out denominators doesn't fix discontinuities.)

ETA: The problem he was demonstrating it with focused more on the error of -adding- information than removing it, but he did show us how information could be deleted from an equation by inappropriately multiplying by or dividing by zero, showing how discontinuities could be removed or introduced. He also demonstrated a really weird function involving a square root which had two solutions, one of which introduced a discontinuity, one of which didn't.

Comment author: [deleted] 18 April 2013 02:18:17PM 3 points [-]

I'm a graduate student, working on my thesis.

I accept that this is some pedagogical half-truth, but I just don't see how it benefits people to pretend mathematics cares about whether or not you "eliminate meaning in the data." There's no meta-theorem that says information in an equation has to be preserved, whatever that means.

Comment author: [deleted] 16 April 2013 03:11:36AM 0 points [-]

Thanks, that's helpful. But I guess my point is that it seems to me to be a problem for a system of mathematics that one can do operations which, as you say, delete the data. In other words, isn't it a problem that it's even possible to use basic arithmetical operations to render my data meaningless? If this were possible in a system of logic, we would throw the system out without further ado.

And while I can construct a proof that 2=1 (what I called a contradiction, namely that a number be equal to its sucessor) if you allow me to divide by zero, I cannot do so with multiplications. So the cases are at least somewhat different.

Comment author: Jonii 18 April 2013 08:06:51PM *  6 points [-]

Qiaochu_Yuan already answered your question, but because he was pretty technical with his answer, I thought I should try to simplify the point here a bit. The problem with division by zero is that division is essentially defined through multiplication and existence of certain inverse elements. It's an axiom in itself in group theory that there are inverse elements, that is, for each a, there is x such that a*x = 1. Our notation for x here would be 1/a, and it's easy to see why a * 1/a = 1. Division is defined by these inverse elements: a/b is calculated by a * (1/b), where (1/b) is the inverse of b.

But, if you have both multiplication and addition, there is one interesting thing. If we assume addition is the group operation for all numbers(and we use "0" to signify additive neutral element you get from adding together an element and its additive inverse, that is, "a + (-a) = 0"), and we want multiplication to work the way we like it to work(so that a(x + y) = (ax) + (a*y), that is, distributivity hold, something interesting happens.

Now, neutral element 0 is such that x + 0 = x, this is by definition of neutral element. Now watch the magic happen: 0x = (0 + 0)x
= 0x + 0x So 0
x = 0x + 0x.

We subtract 0x from both sides, leaving us with 0x = 0.

Doesn't matter what you are multiplying 0 with, you always end up with zero. So, assuming 1 and 0 are not the same number(in zero ring, that's the case, also, 0 = 1 is the only number in the entire zero ring), you can't get a number such that 0*x = 1. Lacking inverse elements, there's no obvious way to define what it would mean to divide by zero. There are special situations where there is a natural way to interpret what it means to divide by zero, in which cases, go for it. However, it's separate from the division defined for other numbers.

And, if you end up dividing by zero because you somewhere assumed that there actually was such a number x that 0*x = 1, well, that's just your own clumsiness.

Also, you can prove 1=2 if you multiply both sides by zero. 1 = 2. Proof: 10 = 20 => 0 = 0. Division and multiplication work in opposite directions, multiplication gets you from not equals to equals, division gets you from equals to not equals.

Comment author: [deleted] 20 April 2013 04:43:42PM 2 points [-]

Excellent explanation, thank you. I've been telling everyone I know about your resolution to my worry. I believe in math again.

Maybe you can solve my similarly dumb worry about ethics: If the best life is the life of ethical action (insofar as we do or ought to prefer to do the ethically right thing over any other comforts or pleasures), and if ethical action consists at least largely in providing and preserving the goods of life for our fellow human beings, then if someone inhabited the limit case of the best possible life (by permanently providing immortality, freedom, and happiness for all human beings), wouldn't they at the same time cut everyone else off from the best kind of life?

Comment author: drethelin 20 April 2013 06:13:07PM 3 points [-]

Ethical action is defined by situations. The best life in the scenario where we don't have immortality freedom and happiness is to try to bring them about, but the best life in the scenario where we already have them is something different.

Comment author: [deleted] 20 April 2013 08:22:17PM 0 points [-]

Good! That would solve the problem, if true. Do you have a ready argument for this thesis (I mean "but the best life in the scenario where we already have them is something different.")?

Comment author: drethelin 20 April 2013 08:28:43PM 0 points [-]

"If true" is a tough thing here because I'm not a moral realist. I can argue by analogy for the best moral life in different scenarios being a different life but I don't have a deductive proof of anything.

By analogy: the best ethical life in 1850 is probably not identical to the best ethical life in 1950 or in 2050, simply because people have different capacities and there exist different problems in the world. This means the theoretical most ethical life is actually divorced from the real most ethical life, because no one in 1850 could've given humanity all those things and working toward would've taken away ethical effort from eg, abolishing slavery. Ethics under uncertainty means that more than one person can be living the subjectively ethically perfect life even if only one of them will achieve what their goal is because no one knows who that is ahead of time.

Comment author: Watercressed 18 April 2013 10:22:39PM 0 points [-]

x + 0 = 0

I think you mean x + 0 = x

Comment author: Jonii 19 April 2013 11:39:44AM 1 point [-]

yes. yes. i remember thinking "x + 0 =". after that it gets a bit fuzzy.

Comment author: mstevens 18 April 2013 02:40:24PM 0 points [-]