sockPuppet1 comments on What truths are actually taboo? - Less Wrong
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I think I thought of one: "Most children enjoy genital stimulation." I'm not 100% sure that is true, but I think it is true. At least, I know I did and I believe that many children engage in a fair amount of self-stimulation. I can't think of any situation where I would be comfortable discussing the positives of giving sexual pleasure to children.
Most Western people don't want to allow sexuality even to post-puberty teenagers, at least before the ages of 15-16. Some people are even opposed to any sort of sexual education.
The issue is more socially complex than the (true) fact it's taboo. Most people are not guided by "what would be best / most enjoyable for the children", but rather "what would be proper" or "what would build the kind of society we want when the children grow up".
There's also the rather disturbing trend of parents treating their children, to a greater or lesser degree, like pets. This is a relatively modern development, since the point that children were no longer required to work from a young age. Pets having sex is, at best, eye-rolling.
I tend to prefer this kind of explanation because "what would build the kind of society we want when the children grow up" seems too sophisticated and neat to be an accurate description of what's going on. I suspect that dynamic comes into play only sporadically, with moralizing (what's proper, what's presentable or impressive, what doesn't discomfort me) taking centre stage most of the time.
On the other-hand the taboo against children having sex isn't a modern development.
Rather, questions of propriety and morality refer to memes that were presumably selected by memetic evolution for some combination of the children's individual and collective benefit.
<strike> It's not? Damn, that 12-year-old girl in feudal England must be so happy that there's a social taboo against children having sex. That way she doesn't have to worry about being done stuff she doesn't even understand when she gets married next moon to some 19-year-old page boy she's only ever met twice.
Oh wait. </strike>
(TL;DR: [citation needed]) Edit: (gwern wins some more internets - by actually providing citations! I stand corrected.)
I'm not an expert on developmental sexuality in preindustrial Europe, but for most of the feudal era child marriage was a lot rarer than pop culture would have us believe and almost exclusively an upper-class phenomenon. It also didn't necessarily imply immediate consummation; most of the feudal women we know about that did marry at thirteen or fourteen didn't bear children until a few years later. Women from the peasant and mercantile classes (the vast majority of the population) often wouldn't marry until their early twenties, for a variety of basically economic reasons.
Upper-class feudal women did marry young by our standards, but usually that would have meant sixteen to eighteen, not twelve.
From Farewell to Alms; Asia:
Egypt:
Europe:
To put these averages in perspective; from http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/magazine/22Adulthood-t.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss&pagewanted=all
I've seen claims that ancient Greece & Rome may have been very different from the later medieval patterns; from http://community.feministing.com/2010/02/14/misogyny-and-relationship-inequality/comment-page-1/
(Quotes extracted from searching my Evernotes: http://www.evernote.com/pub/gwern/gwern )
Thanks! This makes a strong enough case to upturn the history book I read (in high school, and of typical epistemic quality for high school history books).
I'd say it's more that 'it's complicated and dependent on region'. After all, there is a specific claim there that in Grecoroman society the stereotype that girls got married the moment they started bleeding was true. And no doubt anthropologists could list societies fitting every marriage age bracket from before conception to 'never'. (But it does mean that we can't pride ourselves on how civilized we are compared to our barbaric ancestors as of, say, 5 centuries ago.)
Or feel ashamed at how much more sexually repressed we are as savageorange was doing above.
More materials: http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/GESUND/ARCHIV/GUS/HISTORYCHHS.HTM http://womenofhistory.blogspot.com/2007/08/medieval-marriage-childbirth.html
What do you mean by parents treating their children like pets?
I realize not everyone is familiar with or has witnessed or has even heard of the kind of interactions that are described when children are compared to pets, but it still baffles and surprises me on a gut level whenever someone asks about it.
Here's a few contrasting examples as a (weak) attempt to McGuyver an intuition pump:
To Roommate: "Your music's bothering me, I need to concentrate / have calm for XYZ reasons, could you please turn it down a bit?" (justification usually given or implicit)
To Pet: "Your meowing's loud, shut the fuck up." (optional addition: *gives a cookie to shut it up*)
To Child: "Turn down your music! It's loud!" (No justification given, usually even upon request)
To Roommate: "Could you wash the dishes? I'm really tired and I still have to do XYZ. (or insert X'Y'Z' reason)"
To Pet: ... (pet eats in dirty dishes, or at best rinsed with flowing tapwater)
To Child: "Do the dishes before 5 PM." "Come do the dishes NOW or I'm unplugging your computer / gaming console / (insert other arbitrary unrelated top-down punishment)"
To Roommate: "I'll take care of cleaning my room/space, I don't care about yours as long as it doesn't stink or infest the whole place, although you should help me clean bathroom/kitchen/living room/etc for XYZ reasons"
To Pet: (trains to not be messy, yell at whenever it makes a mess of its personal space)
To Child: "Clean your room by the end of the day or you can't go out this weekend."
In other words / to generalize, what is meant with "treating children like pets" is that the interactions, decisions and their properties are, in the case of children, more accurately modeled by a decision tree / graph like that for Pet interactions than one for Roommate / Significant Other / Actual Other Human Being Living With You interactions.
For many families, though I don't know how many, the interactions for children is extremely close to the counterfactual "pets if my pet could talk", and completely incompatible with the "Roommate" examples (my .5 is 70-80%, .95 for 40-95%).
In a large number of situations I've seen personally, replacing the child with a roommate for a similar situation being treated similar to the child would have resulted in a civil or perhaps even criminal lawsuit, even if the roommate was otherwise similar (say, a cousin living there and going back to university that for some family circumstances you're stuck living with, but who still doesn't / can't pay rent and food and amenities, e.g. because 100% of money goes for studying).
But their child? "People can educate their children however they want, they have a right to their children's education" (read: They have a "right" to decide what the child does, how they do it, which rights the child is entitled to or not, etc.)
Also compare the rights of parents and what parents are allowed to do with their children legally to what they have towards pets, versus what they have with other-people-just-living-with-or-near-them.
Basically, this is similar to what rationalist!Harry sometimes complains about in the early parts of HPMoR. Children are Not People.
Yes, this is exactly what I mean. In my case I was also thinking of the way some parents train their children to make their parents look good -- as objects to show off, just like dogs or cats at a show, not individuals whose accomplishments are largely their own.
It's a good thing I asked-- my guess was that you meant that children were coddled but not trained.
In some ways the child in your examples is actually treated worse than the pet (particularly along the scale of invasive coercion).
I know right?
Guess the best part. Go on.
(spoiler: All of them are true examples of things that have happened dozens or hundreds of times to myself or other humans in my circles during their childhoods, and they're only select examples that are easy to compare out of dozens more similarly-bad cases I could list.)
Fair disclaimer: This subject engages me a lot and it's on my long laundry list of Subtopics Of Things To Protect.
I don't think this is so much "treating children as pets" as it is "treating children like not your peers". When your boss asks you to do something, does she say "Hey, would you mind helping me out with X? I'd really like to get it done this week."? More than likely, she says "I need you to finish X by Friday."
You only need to give justifications to peers. A person in a higher position of authority can make a request of a subordinate without justification. So it is with officers/privates in the military, managers/employees, and parents/children.
To adress your second point: The point isn't in justification. The difference I'm pointing at is the attitude and mental model of the world of the Commander, i.e. the parent. And this causes some crucial differences in behavior that aren't accounted for by the lack of need to justify oneself or even the consideration of not being a peer.
Sure, we could say some (or perhaps even most, YMMV) workplace managers behave a certain way that is similar to those parents and children. We could say the same for militaries. I care little for what one could say about the similarities or the words that can or "should" be used.
Key point: Children are often treated by their parents in a manner completely dissimilar to every other case of family member or person with whom they live.
Key point 2: This behavior of parents towards children has sufficient differences from typical cases of social-class or not-peer behaviors for me to not label it as a standard case of such. I believe it would be very misleading. Parents often carefully control the "private life" of their children; what they eat, what they do at any given time, who they interact with, what they say, and even what they think to some extent.
Even in military settings, moreso in workplaces, these examples are not at all carefully monitored and controlled with punishments and threats of various kinds, and even those that are generally end the moment your shift ends and you walk out the door, with some exceptions regarding PR and such (e.g. politicians and people with similar occupations).
Key Point 3: Behaviors, social norms and laws differ between all those cases, and I would argue that laws and social norms, at least, are more similar between pets and children than they are between children and employees/nonofficers. If an employee doesn't behave as a manager wishes, they are limited in their options, and the interactions and roles are socially clear. A manager cannot threaten to confiscate an employee's phone for not properly cleaning up after themselves in the bathroom, nor are they legally and socially allowed to dole out corporal punishment for an employee that talks back to them or asks the wrong questions.
Yes, this is a touchy issue for me, so I apologize if I come across as less polite than I think.
That's.... a really good one, actually. Perhaps disguise the idea in a critical discussion of Brave New World?
Really the only acceptable conversation I can think of goes something like:
If memory serves, it was something about not hitting 6-month-olds for touching themselves in Marriage and Morals that prevented Russell from teaching at City College years later...
With the another evident exception being this conversation and those like it that employ sufficient indirection. The ancestor is currently at +4, 100%.
Hrm? I'm not sure why you think I disagree with your comment. Taking a step meta is generally acceptable. People claim the Holocaust never happened is not taboo, even if The Holocaust never happened is taboo in many contexts.
I think the ancestor is a +12 because it is a great example of what the OP requested - a true, probably taboo sentence.
See this excellectly written blog post on should we allow sex play in Kindergarden? (SFW, seriously)
This hasn't been a taboo since Freud's time. (For one data point, I never masturbated until I was about 15, as far as I can remember, but... teenagers talking about when they masturbated as children weren't terribly uncommon.)
Prepubescent children? Babies touch themselves while being changed - most of the parenting books I read said not to worry or make a big deal about it.
Such a warning seems unnecessary if most people normally followed the advice.
I guess that “taboo” in the OP means ‘what you can't say’, not ‘what you can say but still lots of people are wrong about’. Otherwise it'd be faaaar easier to find taboos.
Yeah, I debated a separate post on that point. To me, it is pretty clear that the OP is using taboo in Graham's sense. Then I decided too much time had passed to make that post worthwhile.
Perhaps it should be? I'm not sure how we can rely on ourselves to give sexual pleasure without any sort of self-gratification, and using children for sexual gratification is a big no no in my book. Lots of moral hazard in this form of pleasure that is quite avoidable by finding one of the billion other things kids like doing.
That seems like an astoundingly arbitrary position. Good thing + good thing somehow equals bad thing?
Mind you, I'd say any argument that even tangentially endorses pedophilia - including all those arguments that are trivially wrong but filled with applause lights - is massively taboo.
I agree with the second part of your comment, as I've said.
Good thing + good thing? I don't think that using children for sexual pleasure is a "good thing" at all. It would be if we lived in a universe where the formula is pleasure + pleasure, but it obviously isn't. Do terms such as "meaningful consent" or "exploitation" have any relevance here?
Perhaps this example will help:
A pedophile lives in a holodeck and molests holographic children. Is this worse than a analogous situation involving holographic adults? Why?
Are the holographic people actually people (as defined by the Turing test/the generalized anti-zombie principle)?
No, sorry, that was what I meant to imply by "holodeck".
As for the actual mechanics of it, maybe it pulls data from parallel universes, maybe they're the puppets of a (sentient) AI (zombie-master hypothesis) or maybe consciousness is easier to fake than you might expect, so they run sophisticated chatbots certified by a nonperson predicate. Damned if I know.
It's basically an experience machine / catgirl volcano lair, is the idea. Only, y'know, icky.
In that case, it doesn't squick me much more if they're children than if they're adults. But then again, few of the examples in section “Emotion and Deontological Judgments” in this post squick me much, so I may be the wrong person to ask.
I think his fantasies are perverse and contrary to values I have about human autonomy, but I don't think the situation is significantly worse. His actions are not going to put a kid in therapy.
I also completely fail to see the relevance.
If children masturbating makes them feel good, and pedophiles feeling good about having sex with them isn't inherently bad, then pedophiles helping kids masturbate is just efficient use of labor. Goes the logic.
Goes the logic that works so long as you do not care about meaningful consent. This is a lot like the "if she's sleeping, it's not rape" argument we heard in the aftermath of the Steubenville case.
What is this meaningful consent thinghy you mention? Do I need it to play tag with other children (given that I'm a child)? Does an adult need it when playing tag with children? Do you need it when washing eachothers' backs in the bath? Do you need it when washing your child in the bath? Do you need it when your child asks for a massage? Do you need it when your child asks for a "massage"?
Where, and how, and why, does one draw the line?
My value system is incompatible with your statement and has no entry for this reference of "meaningful consent".
Edit: Split away irrelevant part of the comment.
FTR: If I had any sort of relationship like this when I was a minor (sadly, I didn't) and someone sued my S.O. / partner over this "meaningful consent" thing, I would have resented them and would still resent them to this day, and would most likely have pressed charges and sued them back into oblivion as soon as I turned legally capable of suing people, over all kinds of privacy breach, life alteration, or whatever other morality-based claims that I could find, in the same way I would sue anyone who pressed charges against me for having sex with my current girlfriend.
I've always found "informed consent" (probably the same thing) to be a damn good heuristic, myself, although I certainly don't terminally value it. Are those meant to be rhetorical questions?
... actually, I'm of the opinion that conflating that sort of thing with, y'know, the sort of thing people picture when you say "rape" leads to both overestimation of the harm it causes and devaluing of the suffering caused by violently raping someone. It is, of course, bad, and it should be discouraged with punishments and so on, but I don't think it shares a Schelling point with "real" rape.
However.
What about this "meaningful consent" that renders it valuable? At what point does consent become "meaningful"? We usually allow parents to consent on behalf of their children, presumably because they will further the child's own interests; should this apply to sex? What do you think you know, and how do you think you know it? Let's pry open this black box!
[Side note: I personally am against legalizing such relationships, but I worry that I'm smart enough to argue convincingly for this position regardless of its truth, so I'm not going to elaborate on my reasoning here.]
Which in my experience people picture extremely inaccurately. They picture girls getting grabbed off a park sidewalk by a ravenous stranger. That's a very atypical case. Outside of prison, rape is typically perpetuated by friends and lovers and dates. This is unsurprising given pure opportunity, just as it's unsurprising that children are typically victimized by families and trusted friends of their families, not by strangers with candy.
Requiring rape to be "violent" is to require that most extra-penal rape be reclassified as not-rape. There is usually the implicit threat of violence, and the (typically) women in such circumstances are made to understand they have no choice or power. Anyone who looks at this issue will quickly meet people who insist that it isn't "rape" if the woman did not violently resist and never succumbed, or if there were no beatings involved.
"Rape" is only as meaningful as "meaningful consent."
Babies cannot give meaningful consent. Children can sometimes give meaningful consent, but it is difficult to determine. We allow parents to make decisions for their children in weighty matters - within strict limits. We do not allow them to give their kids liquor and cigarettes nor restrict them to "alternative medicine" for deadly disease. All of this makes sense: by and large, we do not allow families to stunt and cripple development.
(I give one exception: it is still considered acceptable to give a child a poor diet to the point of severe obesity. I think this should be at least as criminal, if not more, than allowing cigarette-smoking.)
"Meaningful consent" comes in degrees: adults are better at it than young teenagers. Most states have age of consent laws which, while allowing sex with minors, only allows it within a certain age bracket. Differential intellectual capacity matters.
You'll notice that I haven't tried to give a definition. With complicated concepts, it is often better to talk about them as if they were meaningful, and notice that they are, that we can recognize their presence or absence from different circumstances. If you are wholly unable to recognize such circumstances, let me know and I'll try being more precise.