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SilasBarta comments on The Unselfish Trolley Problem - Less Wrong
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Comments (131)
Replacing "like that guy did a few months ago" in my comment with something agentless and Silas-free such as "like seems to happen these days" doesn't, AFAICT, change the relevance of my objection: people are still less able to manage risk, and a Pareto disimprovement has happened in that people have to spend more to get the same-utility risk/reward combo. So your change does not obviate my distinction and objection.
But it has to be a real known problem in order for people's actions to change. Given that a pure trolley problem hasn't yet happened in reality, keeping it secret if it did happen should be plenty sufficient to prevent societal harm from the reactions.
But if I say that it's a good idea here, I'm saying it's a good idea in any comparable case, and so it should be a discernible (and Pareto-inefficient) phenomenon.
But if you limit "comparable cases" to situations where you can do it in secret, that's not a problem.
Again, the problem is not that people could notice me as being responsible. The problem is that it's harder to assess dangers at all, so people have to increase their margins of safety all around. If someone wants to avoid death by errant trolleys, it's no longer enough to be on a bridge overpass; they have to be way, way removed.
The question, in other words is, "would I prefer that causality were less constrained by locality?" No, I would not, regardless of whether I get the blame for it.
So your claim is that other people's reasoning processes work not based on evidence derived by their senses, but instead by magic. An event which they have no possible way of knowing about has happened, and you still expect them to take it into account and change their decisions accordingly. Do I have that about right?
If this kind of thing consistently happened (as it would have to, if I claim it should be done in every comparable case), then yes it would be discernible, without magic.
If this action is really, truly intended as a "one-off" action, then sure, you avoid that consequence, but you also avoid talking about morality altogether, since you've relaxed the constraint that moral rules be consistent altogether.
So morality is irrelevant in sufficiently unlikely situations?
No, your criticism of a particular morality is irrelevant if you stipulate that the principle behind its solution doesn't generalize. That is, if you say, "what would you do here if we stipulated that the reasoning behind your decision didn't generalize?" then you've discarded the requirement of consistency and the debate is pointless.
I think of it more as establishing boundary conditions. Obviously, you can't use the trolley problem on its own as sufficient justification for Lenin's policy of breaking a few eggs. But if the pure version of the problem leads you to the conclusion that it's wrong to think about then you avoid the discussion entirely, whereas if it's a proper approach in the pure problem then the next step is trying to figure out the real-world limits.