SilasBarta comments on Justifiable Erroneous Scientific Pessimism - Less Wrong
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
Comments (116)
If there were no celestial bodies but Earth and the sun, we would have been just as correct as heliocentrists.
I don't think that's right.
The center of mass for the Earth-sun system is inside the sun; so, yeah, the heliocentrists wouldn't be "just as correct".
If the two masses were equal, then Earth and Sun would orbit a point that was equidistant to them; and in that scenario heliocentrists and geocentrists would be equally wrong....
Why privilege the center of mass as the reference point? Do we need to find the densest concentration of mass in the known universe to determine what we call the punctum fixum and what we call the punctum mobile?
As far as I can tell, most of the local universe revolves around me. That may be a common human misconception, seeing as I'm not a black hole, if we only go by centers of mass. But do we have to?
(Also, "densest concentration of mass" would probably be in the bible belt.)
I think the center of mass thing is a bit of a red herring here. While velocity and position are all relative, rotation is absolute. You can determine if you're spinning without reference to the outside world. For example, imagine a space station you spin for "gravity". You can tell how fast it's spinning without looking outside by measuring how much gravity there is.
You can work in earth-stationary coordinates, there will just be some annoying odd terms in your math as a result (it's a non-inertial reference frame).
Technically, no you can't. Per EY's points on Mach's principle, spinning yourself around (with the resulting apparent movement of stars and feeling of centrifugal stresses) is observationally equivalent to the rest of the universe conspiring to rotate around you oppositely.
The c.g. of the earth/sun solar system would likewise lack a privileged position in such a world.
Is that correct? Spinning implies rotation implies acceleration, which I'd always thought could be detected without external reference points.
Without taking a stance on Mach's principle or that specific question of observational equivalence, what about a spinning body in an otherwise empty universe? As an extreme example, my own body could spin only so fast before tearing itself apart. Surely this holds even if I'm floating in an otherwise utterly empty universe?
This is addressed later in the article, very well IMHO. Let me just give the relevant excerpts:
I worry I'm missing something obvious, but that EY quote doesn't seem to address my belief (namely, that detecting accleration doesn't need an external reference point). It just argues there's no absolute origin to use as an external reference point.
Silas is talking about this:
Edit: You are correct from a classical physics standpoint that if you are in a windowless room on a merry-go-round, you can tell whether the merry-go-round is standing still versus spinning at a constant speed. (For instance, you could shoot a billiard ball and see whether its path is straight or curved.) This contrasts with the analogous situation in a windowless train car, where you cannot tell whether the train is standing still versus moving with a constant velocity.
I agree that it's at least quite plausible (as per your post, it's not proven to follow from GR) that if the universe spun around you, it might be exactly the same as if you were spinning. However, if there's no background at all, then I'm pretty sure the predictions of GR are unambiguous. If there's no preferred rotation, then what do you predict to happen when you spin newton's bucket at different rates relative to each other?
EDIT: Also, although now I'm getting a bit out of my league, I believe that even in the massive external rotating shell case, the effect is miniscule.
EDIT 2: See this comment.
Are you sure you linked the right comment? That's just someone talking about centripetal vs centrifugal.
No, I didn't. It's fixed now, thanks.