Juno_Watt comments on How to Build a Community - Less Wrong

13 Post author: peter_hurford 15 May 2013 05:43AM

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Comment author: Juno_Watt 15 May 2013 06:48:02PM 1 point [-]

Can anyone think of any benevolent dictatorships that exist IRL?

Comment author: TimS 15 May 2013 07:27:39PM 5 points [-]

How should we categorize families with children?

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 15 May 2013 08:17:37PM 2 points [-]

They are oligarchies (although, typically, the oligarchs have unequal decision-making powers).

Comment author: [deleted] 15 May 2013 07:33:22PM *  0 points [-]

Anocracy

Specifically: "[Anocracys are] neither autocratic nor democratic, most of which are making the risky transition between autocracy and democracy". That's pretty much a perfect description of raising kids.

Comment author: shminux 15 May 2013 08:40:48PM *  1 point [-]

Interesting term, haven't heard it before. I'd venture to say, however, that immediate and extended families with or without children range all over the democracy spectrum.

EDIT: by "democracy spectrum" I meant the complete range of structures from anarchy to tyranny, an unfortunate choice in retrospect. Wikipedia uses the term "democratic continuum".

Comment author: TimS 15 May 2013 08:52:40PM 4 points [-]

Hrm? My wife and I run the family with an eye towards my son's welfare. But we ain't no democracy, and I can't imagine a functional family that was a democracy - there are some choices that are removed from consideration before the children's preferences are considered at all.

Comment author: [deleted] 15 May 2013 08:58:30PM *  11 points [-]

My 9 year old came to me a few months ago after I told him to go brush his teeth. He said (without any acrimony or contempt, it was just an observation) that if he well and truly refused to brush his teeth, there'd be nothing I could do about it. He said 'When you tell me to do things, I instinctively do them, but I don't think you could actually make me do anything. You're in charge of me because of me, not you.' He noted, however, that the instinct is a good one because there's a lot he doesn't know.

Our house isn't a democracy either, but it's no kind of dictatorship. He's absolutely right: the guy with the biggest gun is him, and more and more everything is a negotiation. That's my experience anyway.

Comment author: TimS 16 May 2013 05:47:09PM 7 points [-]

Our house isn't a democracy either, but it's no kind of dictatorship. He's absolutely right: the guy with the biggest gun is him, and more and more everything is a negotiation. That's my experience anyway.

If your family is fairly normal, there are lots of interventions you could implement to change his behavior.
1) Positive reinforcement ("Here's a dollar for brushing")
2) Negative reinforcement ("You are free from other chores since you brushed")
3) Positive punishment (SMACK)
4) Negative punishment ("No more video games for you.")

There are reasonable considerations about the ratio of parental effort to child compliance. But if it was important enough, you could cause your child to brush if you wanted to.

Comment author: ThrustVectoring 16 May 2013 07:08:21PM 4 points [-]

That will just lead into meta-level negotiation. It's not about whether or not the kid brushes their teeth at some point, but setting what costs the parents are willing to and expect to pay in order to gain compliance (and, of course, what costs the child is willing to and expects to pay in order to do what they please). Once you start bribing your kid into doing things, the obvious next step for an adversarial opponent is to not do anything unless bribed into it. Similarly, threatening and punishing them into compliance is going to result in a willingness-to-punish testing.

The last actually happened with me - I had some emotional hangups with schoolwork, and I procrastinated often. My parents were completely clueless though, and decided that the right course of action was to take away the things that I happened to procrastinate on until I "improved". This did not go well for them - at some point I was down to just fiction books and homework, and I'd procrastinate by reading books, and they weren't willing to take away books from me.

Really, I think that the control-your-kids is a pretty bad paradigm to operate in. I mean, to some extent, yeah, they're better off if they brush their teeth. The meta-level skill of getting positive-value unpleasant tasks done is much more valuable, though - and if you make your kid do those things by negotiation, then you rob them of the chance to develop that skill on their own.

Comment author: TimS 22 May 2013 12:33:22AM 0 points [-]

I'm sorry your parents were clueless. Just because there is some intervention that can get a child to change a behavior doesn't mean that any intervention will work, or that the most obvious intervention will work. If one misunderstands the purpose of the behavior, then one is extremely likely to apply an intervention that won't work.

I'm sorry you had difficulties growing up, but that isn't an argument against behavioral interventions.

Really, I think that the control-your-kids is a pretty bad paradigm to operate in. I mean, to some extent, yeah, they're better off if they brush their teeth. The meta-level skill of getting positive-value unpleasant tasks done is much more valuable, though - and if you make your kid do those things by negotiation, then you rob them of the chance to develop that skill on their own.

It is important for parents to decide in advance what behaviors are worth what level of effort. Forcing my son to brush his teeth now when he is three is different than forcing some other behavior change when he is a teenager.

Comment author: [deleted] 22 May 2013 12:51:37AM -1 points [-]

I don't think anyone would argue that behavioral interventions are always a bad idea, but I agree (I think I agree) with Thrust that behavioral interventions are generally a treatment of symptoms as opposed to a treatment of the disease. My kid needs to brush his teeth, sure, but the point is ultimately to get him to respond to long term considerations about his own good and the good of others. Behavior interventions generally get someone to respond to immediate considerations of their good, and in order to be effective they generally have to be calibrated so as to reduce or eliminate consideration on the part of the kid as to whether or not to comply. With a young child, that's what you have to do to build up good habits. But as the kid gets older, my sense is that one has to switch over to conversations about what reasons the kid can see for doing the right thing, instead of creating more immediate reasons that require less reflection.

Anyway, what my boy observed, correctly, was that there was no forcing him to do anything. I could adjust the incentives around brushing his teeth, or I could force a situation where his teeth are brushed, but it's entirely impossible for me to force him to do anything.

Comment author: [deleted] 16 May 2013 08:04:13PM 0 points [-]

Yes.

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 15 May 2013 10:23:02PM 4 points [-]

(My standard response to such statements is that it doesn't matter who makes decisions, only what the correct decisions are. Focus on figuring out the answer instead of on who names which answer why.)

Comment author: Error 16 May 2013 11:38:13AM 3 points [-]

'When you tell me to do things, I instinctively do them, but I don't think you could actually make me do anything. You're in charge of me because of me, not you.'

And he figured this out at age 9? I'm impressed. I didn't reach that point until quite a few years later.

Comment author: Estarlio 16 May 2013 11:50:01AM *  -1 points [-]

Really? Never tried screaming "You can't make me!" or asked "Why should I?!" Seems to be an insight most children have to me.

Comment author: Error 16 May 2013 12:34:09PM 3 points [-]

There's a difference between saying something (or screaming it) and understanding it.

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 16 May 2013 12:23:34PM 3 points [-]

This seems perfectly normal if the parents don't make unfair or unexplained requests, and the kid follows fair requests.

Comment author: Estarlio 16 May 2013 12:31:59PM 0 points [-]

Don't know what the prevalence of reasonable parents is.

Comment author: shminux 15 May 2013 09:41:39PM 0 points [-]

He's absolutely right: the guy with the biggest gun is him

The "guy with the biggest gun" is the one with most leverage, and short of your son calling child services it is the parents. That said, he must be unusually bright for a 9yo.

Comment author: ThrustVectoring 16 May 2013 07:16:09PM *  4 points [-]

It's not that cut and dry. The child can institute a policy of attrition to get bargaining power. Sure, in any individual situation the parents have a lot more power - but as a general rule they aren't willing to follow a policy of spending significant amounts of time to get their child to do anything.

It's complicated by the parents generally caring about their child's welfare, too. Getting compliance at any cost is a losing strategy for raising a successful kid.

Let me elaborate. There are certain lines which parents aren't willing to cross - spending tens of hours a week, or over a certain amount of money in bribes, or punishment inflicted. The parents mostly care about rewards and punishments in terms of how it affects the child's behavior. So, a general strategy of "do not let my behavior change by any reward or punishment that the parents are willing to give me for compliance or noncompliance" is a good enough position to get any reasonable compromise that the child wants. The parents are stuck with either not getting what they want, crossing the line into child abuse, or negotiating with the kid.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 15 May 2013 09:44:14PM 4 points [-]

there are some choices that are removed from consideration before the children's preferences are considered at all.

Is this sort of thing not standard in democracies?

Comment author: TimS 16 May 2013 05:42:08PM 5 points [-]

Imagine a family with five children. In a pure democracy "Candy for dinner" wins 5-2. In a real family, there's no vote because candy ain't for dinner.

Not that our actual governments are pure democracies. I don't argue they should be, but there is a veil-of-ignorance / Schelling point / first-they-came-for-the-trade-unionists argument for most anti-majoritarian laws. I don't think the argument would work with children.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 16 May 2013 07:10:01PM 2 points [-]

I 100% agree that in a real family, candy ain't for dinner.
And I suppose I agree that in a "pure democracy" (insofar as such a thing is even a cogent thought experiment) whether candy is for dinner or not is, as you suggest, subject to a one-mouth-one-vote kind of decision procedure.

But, as you say, there are no pure democracies in the real world. My point was that in the real governments which we ordinarily refer to as "democracies," not only are some people (including minors) not permitted to vote in the first place, but even among adults some (most!) choices are removed from consideration before voting commences at all.

So it seems no more wrong to say "Sam's family is a democracy" (even though the children don't get a vote, and some choices are not even subject to vote) than to say "Canada is a democracy" (ibid).

Comment author: TimS 17 May 2013 01:58:27AM 1 point [-]

I was mostly reacting to shminux's assertion that a family with children might be just about anywhere on the scale between democracy and tyranny. Whereas I think a functional family is about 3/4 tyranny, and Canada is much closer to 3/4 democracy.

Comment author: ModusPonies 16 May 2013 04:49:09PM 3 points [-]

The moderators on this website?

Comment author: shminux 15 May 2013 06:49:28PM 2 points [-]

Any small business.

Comment author: [deleted] 15 May 2013 06:56:03PM *  4 points [-]

Those are really constitutional monarchies: there's plenty of labor law between the owners and the employees governing their interactions.

Comment author: shminux 15 May 2013 07:08:40PM 1 point [-]

Fair point, there are always constraints on what a dictator can do, some explicit, some implicit. I was using the broader description:

dictatorship (government without people's consent) is a contrast to democracy (government whose power comes from people)

Comment author: [deleted] 15 May 2013 07:48:16PM *  0 points [-]

Can you think of successful organizations that fit this description (description 3 from the wiki article)?

In contemporary usage, dictatorship refers to an autocratic form of absolute rule by leadership unrestricted by law, constitutions, or other social and political factors within the state.

The trouble is, almost any organization within the jurisdiction of a state is going to be governed by some laws. But we should probably accept any candidate that is subject to no laws specific to its form of organization, which would probably include LW and moderated online communities generally. I can't think of any large organizations where very much is at stake in membership or organizational activities.

Comment author: Juno_Watt 15 May 2013 10:37:28PM *  1 point [-]

is everyone getting the point that you can't really say "Well, X works", when it only works because it embedded in some larger system that kind of makes it work (eg labour law constraining egotistical CEO's).

The problems of politics --actual politics -- are that it is inherently large scale,, and that it is where the buck stops.

Comment author: Juno_Watt 15 May 2013 10:33:11PM -2 points [-]

They're all benevolent?

That scales up to the nation level? (Hint: "small")

Comment author: OrphanWilde 16 May 2013 03:11:08PM 0 points [-]

Dubai and to a lesser extent Abu Dhabi?

Comment author: Multiheaded 16 May 2013 06:34:16PM *  11 points [-]

Are you fucking kidding me? I mean, if you're a rich Western man who can move out at a moment's notice, then yes, sure - literally everything caters to your comfort and convenience. If you're a migrant worker, run afoul of Saudi gender norms, or are otherwise in a marginalized and powerless group... it's hell. And a scary perspective for the 1st World's transhuman future, too.

Such flippant and callous observations from a position of great relative privliege is what gave traction to the "Glibertarian" label, y'know. Both for the sake of LW epistemic standards and to avoid sounding like an entitled aristocrat, please think before commenting.

I'm not even particularly pissed off about this one comment, it all just adds up when you... observe the persistence of certain ideological trends on the internet.

Here's some more links about how such glittering Cities Upon A Hill really function:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7985361.stm
http://frontpagemag.com/2012/jamie-glazov/the-exploitation-of-immigrant-workers-in-the-middle-east/

And here's Will Self dissecting a book that self-consciously chooses to sing paeans to this neofeudal/corporate-fascist model:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v33/n09/will-self/the-frowniest-spot-on-earth

There’s a disarming frankness to the way [Lindsay] recounts the poverty of Kenyan flower growers, simply in order to urge us to carry on buying their posies. His vision for the future of the African continent in the Age of the Aerotropolis seems to be as a vast latifundium sown with GM wheat. Equally brazen is his aside that Apple engineers refer to the Foxconn plant in Shenzhen – where the world’s iPhones and most of its iPads, iPods, Playstations, Nintendos and Kindles are assembled – as ‘Mordor’. Why the evil kingdom in Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings? ‘At its peak,’ Lindsay writes, ‘some 320,000 workers toiled on its assembly lines and slept in its dormitories.’ A rash of suicides among its workers is part of the reason for Foxconn’s relocation to the still poorer and more immiserated interior of the Heavenly People’s Republic.

We might choose to see this as the frownie face that Kasarda’s smiley face tries to mask: an inverted curve where the greatest misery adds to a product’s value in the middle of its global traverse, while the greatest pleasure is accrued by innovators and consumers at either winsome end. Perhaps the frowniest spot on the face of the earth is the despotic principality of Dubai, where Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum’s vision coincides perfectly with Kasarda’s: this is an entire statelet conceived of as an aerotropolis – or, at least, as a transpark with attached office space and buy-to-flip real estate. On a trip to Dubai, Lindsay is typically disarming about the labour camps in the desert where the indentured workers sweat and half-starve; after all, he points out, they’re making better money than they would back home in Kerala, or Baluchistan, so that’s OK. He has read – and cites in his notes – the Human Rights Watch 2006 report Building Towers, Cheating Workers: Exploitation of Migrant Construction Workers in the United Arab Emirates, but notwithstanding his admission that Dubai is ‘all dark side’ he remains … upbeat.

Lindsay even takes a walk in Dubai, and although he doesn’t tell us what distance he covered, my impression is he went only a few blocks. I, too, took a walk in Dubai a couple of years ago, but mine was a two-day traverse from the airport, clear across this great city of unbecoming and into the fringes of the Empty Quarter. Lindsay is told that ‘nobody walks in Dubai,’ but this should be modified: nobody white walks in Dubai. Everywhere I went – along the baking sidewalks of Sheikh Zayed Road, through the dust clouds boiling into the phantasm of Tiger Woods Design’s golf development – I encountered brown and black men, on foot, parted from their families for three, five, even ten years, and ekeing out an existence on $10 a day or less. When they weren’t too intimidated to talk to me, they had nothing positive to say about their situation: their faces were wreathed in frowns. My response to this Xanadu – powered by jet fuel and misted by the evaporation of desalinated water – was to stop flying altogether: I no longer wished to pick up any airmiles that contributed to such a future. Perhaps if frenetic flyers like Kasarda and Lindsay ever dared attempt a sustained hike through the wastelands of the postmodern ugliness they enthuse about, they might take a different view.

Comment author: Jiro 16 May 2013 07:14:21PM *  12 points [-]

Her'es a quote from Wikipedia about those Foxconn suicides:

The suicide rate at Foxconn during the suicide spate remained lower than that of the general Chinese population[8] as well as all 50 states in the United States.[9] Additionally the Foxconn deaths may have been a product of economic conditions external to the company.

I was pretty sure this had been debunked before, but the story keeps getting spread around for ideological reasons.

I'd also point out that just because a geek calls something Mordor doesn't mean he literally thinks it's as bad as Mordor. All it means is that he thinks it's worse than his current living conditions, which only amounts to "people in the US are better off than people in China". IBM and Microsoft get called the Evil Empire all the time, without killing anyone.

Comment author: Multiheaded 16 May 2013 07:27:41PM *  0 points [-]

I was pretty sure this had been debunked before, but the story keeps getting spread around for ideological reasons.

I'm pretty sure that thousands upon thousands of stories like this - where the "normal" functioning of global capitalism is inseparable from some brutal social repression, delegitimizing the ruling narrative that economic "efficiency" and ethics/human decency should be separate magisteria - have never made it to the Western press, or only made a tiny splash. For ideological reasons.

Here's a more thorough account of China specifically:
http://jacobinmag.com/2012/08/china-in-revolt/

...By depicting Chinese workers as Others – as abject subalterns or competitive antagonists – this tableau wildly miscasts the reality of labor in today’s China. Far from triumphant victors, Chinese workers are facing the same brutal competitive pressures as workers in the West, often at the hands of the same capitalists. More importantly, it is hardly their stoicism that distinguishes them from us.

Today, the Chinese working class is fighting. More than thirty years into the Communist Party’s project of market reform, China is undeniably the epicenter of global labor unrest. While there are no official statistics, it is certain that thousands, if not tens of thousands, of strikes take place each year. All of them are wildcat strikes – there is no such thing as a legal strike in China. So on a typical day anywhere from half a dozen to several dozen strikes are likely taking place.

Comment author: khafra 24 May 2013 04:26:39PM *  2 points [-]

I'm pretty sure that thousands upon thousands of stories like this - where the "normal" functioning of global capitalism is inseparable from some brutal social repression, delegitimizing the ruling narrative that economic "efficiency" and ethics/human decency should be separate magisteria - have never made it to the Western press, or only made a tiny splash. For ideological reasons.

I agree with your point, in general--I don't think imperialism, economic or otherwise, is often all that great for indigenous populations--but in this specific assertion, I think you're falling prey to the hostile media effect. I've seen coverage of Foxconn suicides in some pretty doggoned mainstream western media.

Comment author: shminux 16 May 2013 07:07:25PM *  9 points [-]

Downvoted for the initial flip out. You can present all the same evidence just as convincingly without it.

Comment author: [deleted] 16 May 2013 07:59:27PM 0 points [-]

Ah, but the initial flip out was so satisfying.

Comment author: ialdabaoth 17 May 2013 12:04:38AM 1 point [-]

Why do you find it satisfying when someone can be pushed into an irrational state?

Comment author: pragmatist 24 May 2013 03:39:24PM 1 point [-]
Comment author: OrphanWilde 16 May 2013 07:58:37PM 6 points [-]

You accuse me of judging the country from the perspective of a privileged white person, but you're the one comparing it to countries a privileged white person would deem acceptable, rather than to the countries which it started off most similarly to. If you want to judge the efficacy of a dictator, you judge the changes that took place, and those -changes- have been quite good.

No. It's not -better- than the West, it's not even as -good- as the West - shit, just look at their sanitation issues. But look at how far it has come, and how much it has achieved, and for all its human rights issues -how much better it is at preserving human rights than most of the surrounding nations-. The culture there is -not- conducive to human rights; its next door neighbors are sentencing people to jail or death for the crime of apostasy.

While you're attacking me for defending dictators, incidentally, I'm also a fan of Pinochet. He was an asshole who engaged in war crimes and gross violations of human rights - but he turned Chile from a country where those crimes were standard into a country where he could step down and be charged by the government he created with those crimes.

For what they had to work with, and what they achieved, I am immense fans of both Pinochet and the Al Maktoum family. Shrug If you want to call me a glibertarian for that, well, go ahead. Personally I think such a perspective is merely ignorance.

Comment author: Juno_Watt 25 May 2013 02:12:27PM 4 points [-]

Pinochet. He was an asshole who engaged in war crimes and gross violations of human rights but he turned Chile from a country where those crimes were standard into a country where he could step down and be charged by the government he created with those crimes.

Ermm...so he stared doing bad things, then he stopped, and that makes him good? Those crimes weren't standard before he was in power, and he had to stop because of a shift in policy by the US, not by his own volition. And he managed to evade punishment for his crimes. So why is he so great again?

Comment author: OrphanWilde 25 May 2013 04:14:29PM 1 point [-]

We have a tendency to forget the crimes of revolutionary forces while remembering the crimes of those they are revolting against.

The descendants of the comment you're responding to elaborate a little bit more on why I regard him as more good than evil.

Comment author: Multiheaded 16 May 2013 08:41:55PM *  1 point [-]

Well, personally, I don't see a need to engage in further ethical debate in you. Personally, I wish you'd be unable to scrub these images from your mind for a week or two. That you'd imagine the faces of your family on them, perhaps. "Detached" and "objective" debate has its limits when we're talking about the human consequences of some things while staying in guaranteed safety from them.

[TRIGGER WARNING: TORTURE AND EXTREME VIOLENCE]

For women, it was an especially violent experience. The commission reports that nearly every female prisoner was the victim of repeated rape. The perpetration of this crime took many forms, from military men raping women themselves to the use of foreign objects on victims. Numerous women (and men) report spiders or live rats being implanted into their orifices. One woman wrote, “I was raped and sexually assaulted with trained dogs and with live rats. They forced me to have sex with my father and brother who were also detained. I also had to listen to my father and brother being tortured.” Her experiences were mirrored by those of many other women who told their stories to the commission.

...

One of the first things Ms De Witt heard from a cell after her arrest was a man being beaten to death in the yard outside. She said: "They were beating him with what seemed like long chains. I can still hear the noise it made, and then the crying of the young man, eventually it stopped. I saw him later. His whole body was swollen. It was red and blue, and you could not recognise his face. His name was Cedomil Lauzic."

Ms De Witt was put through the ritual of electric shocks, beatings and sexual degradation. "One day I was tortured from 11 in the morning until 5 in the afternoon with electric shocks. Near the end I could not breathe and my heart stopped. They massaged my heart, and they stopped hurting me for that day. But it began again the next morning," she said.

[END TW]

Ain't enough dust specks on this Earth for some things. Intellectual acquiescence with certain ideas should not, I believe, be a matter of relaxed and pleasant debate - no more so than the implementation of them was for their victims.

P.S.: name ONE person tortured or violently repressed by the Allende government. That's right, zero. Allende wouldn't suspend the constitution and the legal norms even in the face of an enemy with no such qualms.

Harmer shows that Allende was a pacifist, a democrat and a socialist by conviction not convenience. He had an ‘unbending commitment to constitutional government’ and refused in the face of an ‘externally funded’ opposition ‘to take a different non-democratic or violent road’. He invoked history to insist that democracy and socialism were compatible, yet he knew that Chile’s experience was exceptional. During the two decades before his election, military coups had overthrown governments in 12 countries: Cuba in 1952; Guatemala and Paraguay in 1954; Argentina and Peru in 1962; Ecuador, the Dominican Republic, Honduras and again Guatemala in 1963; Brazil and Bolivia in 1964; and Argentina once more in 1966. Many of these coups were encouraged and sanctioned by Washington and involved subverting exactly the kind of civil-society pluralism – of the press, political parties and unions – that Allende promoted. So he was sympathetic to the Cuban Revolution and respected Castro, especially after he survived the CIA’s Bay of Pigs exploit in 1961. And when Allende won the presidency, he relied on Cuban advisers for personal security and intelligence operations.

But Cuba’s turn to one-party authoritarianism only deepened Allende’s faith in the durability of Chilean democracy. Socialism could be won, he insisted, through procedures and institutions – the ballot, the legislature, the courts and the media – that historically had been dominated by those classes most opposed to it. Castro warned him that the military wouldn’t abide by the constitution. Until at least early 1973 Allende believed otherwise. His revolution would not be confronted with the choice that had been forced on Castro: suspend democracy or perish. But by mid-1973, events were escaping Allende’s command. On 11 September he took his own life, probably with a gun Castro gave him as a gift. The left in the years after the coup developed its own critique of Allende: that, as the crisis hurtled toward its conclusion, he proved indecisive, failing to arm his supporters and train resistance militias, failing to shut down congress and failing to defend the revolution the way Castro defended his. Harmer presents these as conscious decisions, stemming from Allende’s insistence that neither one-party rule nor civil war was an acceptable alternative to defeat.

Comment author: glomerulus 16 May 2013 09:13:05PM 9 points [-]

Multiheaded, you're taking the disutility of each torture caused by Pinochet and using their sum to declare his actions as a net evil. OrphanWilde seems to acknowledge that his actions were terrible, but makes the statement that the frequency of tortures, each with more or less equal disutility (whatever massive quantity that may be), were overall reduced by his actions.

You, however, appear to be looking at his actions, declaring them evil, and citing Allende as evidence that Pinochet's ruthlessness was unnecessary. This could be the foundation of a good argument, perhaps, but it's not made clear and is instead obscured behind an appeal to emotions, declaring OrphanWilde evil for thinking rationally about events that you think are too repulsive for a rational framework.

Comment author: [deleted] 16 May 2013 09:30:05PM *  4 points [-]

OrphanWilde seems to acknowledge that his actions were terrible, but makes the statement that the frequency of tortures, each with more or less equal disutility (whatever massive quantity that may be), were overall reduced by his actions.

He doesn't actually make that statement anywhere that I can see.

declaring OrphanWilde evil for thinking rationally about events that you think are too repulsive for a rational framework.

I disagree that he has done anything of the sort. What's he even comparing Pinochet to? The obvious candidate is a peacefully elected president after the end of Allende's term, which suggests someone from UP or the Christian Democrats, and it's hard to imagine such a government sponsoring systemic torture against dissidents.

In any case, I think claims of "rational" (which Multiheaded hasn't made anyway) needs to stay far, far away from this thread.

Comment author: OrphanWilde 16 May 2013 09:47:57PM 1 point [-]

To head off an interpretation argument, that's a fair rephrasing of my position. I wouldn't use the word "utility," but the basic moral premise is the same: As bad as Pinochet was, I think he was one of the best options the country had at the time.

Comment author: [deleted] 16 May 2013 09:59:33PM 0 points [-]

On the bright side, we now know how little the torture of over twenty-five thousand is worth to you.

Comment author: OrphanWilde 17 May 2013 01:57:03AM 4 points [-]

Yes. It's worth at least the prevention of the torture of fifty thousand.

Guerrilla warfare against the new government began the same month as the coup - the very next day, in point of fact. At that point I think civil war was inevitable. (And yes, the coup itself was inevitable. Even the judiciary supported it. This might have something to do with the fact that their insistence on following the law resulted in Allende's administration effectively calling the justices of the nation capitalist lapdogs. Yes, I paraphrase.)

The population of Chile was 10 million. There were fewer than 30,000 political prisoners, and around 5,000 deaths (including military and guerrilla forces killed in combat). And yes, a lot of those political prisoners were tortured.

There were other major conflicts in the area in the same era.

Somewhere north of 10,000 died in Argentina in this time frame in the "Dirty War."

The civil war in El Salvador cost around 75,000 lives, out of a population of somewhere south of 5 million people.

The civil war in Guatemala cost somewhere north of 150,000 lives, out of a population of around 4 million people.

Nicaragua faced -two- civil wars, for a combined death toll of at least 40,000, out of a population of around 3 million people.

I could keep going.

Pinochet was an asshole. But if the other conflicts in the region in the era are any indication, his administration, as oppressive as it was, did save the country from a far more costly conflict. In general the trend was for countries that quashed revolutionary forces brutally - such as Argentina and Chile - suffered far fewer deaths overall than countries that didn't or couldn't, such as Nicaragua. (Guatemala initially didn't, but turned far more brutal later.) More, his administration concluded itself peacefully, democratically, and without substantive corruption, which also ran against the norm (for comparison, see, for example, Bolivia). (Note that there -was- corruption -during- his administration. My point there is that he didn't try to corrupt the new government as it formed, and indeed appears to have done a very good job of passing the torch.)

Yes. I think the man did more good than evil. It's a well-considered position and not one I entered into lightly. This doesn't mean the torture of thousands of people doesn't matter; they do. Rather, it means that the lives of tens of thousands of people who -didn't- die matter also.

Comment author: shminux 16 May 2013 10:17:29PM 3 points [-]

Get off the trolley track or be consequentialized.

Comment author: Juno_Watt 28 May 2013 11:12:14AM 1 point [-]

As bad as Pinochet was, I think he was one of the best options the country had at the time.

It's sill odd to be a "huge fan" of someone you can only defend as the lesser of two evils.

Comment author: Multiheaded 16 May 2013 09:38:55PM *  0 points [-]

Yep, I admit there's two arguments. My secondary line of attack is that there was nothing "necessary" about the things Pinochet did, and that in regards to the rule of law and sustainable democracy he wrecked what Allende was trying to create.

But my primary line is that some "rational" arguments should be simply censored when their advocates don't even bother with hypotheticals but point to the unspeakable experiences of real victims and then dismiss them as a fair price for some dubious greater good. This is a behavior and an attitude that our society needs to suppress, I believe, because it's predictive of other self-centered, remorseless, power-blind attitudes - and we're better off with fully general ethical injunctions against such. Not tolerating even the beginning steps of some potentially devastating paths is important enough to outweigh perfect epistemic detachment and pretensions to impartiality.

Christian moralism in its 19th century form - once a popular source for such injunctions - is rightly considered obsolete/bankrupt, but, like Orwell, I think our civilization needs a replacement for it. Or else our descendants might be the ones screaming "Why did it have to be rats?!" one day.

ZERO compromise. Not for the sake of politeness, not for the sake of pure reason, not a single more step to hell.

Comment author: [deleted] 16 May 2013 09:44:40PM 1 point [-]

I completely agree with you.

Comment author: MugaSofer 23 May 2013 04:34:46PM *  2 points [-]

Jesus Christ put a trigger warning on that. Just ... damn.

Also, emotional appeals to how terrible one option is aren't going to change the outcomes of utility calculations. I'm not knowledgeable in this area to weigh in on this discussion, but when one side is saying shut up and multiply and the other is using obvious and clumsy dark arts attacks on the audience's rationality, I'm inclined to support the utilitarian over the deontologist.

Comment author: MugaSofer 24 May 2013 10:05:13AM *  5 points [-]

Multiheaded, usually I would pay the karma toll to reply to your comment, but I've just been karmassasinated and so I'll put it here instead.

Firstly, while I personally am perfectly capable of reading such material without serious harm (thank God), many people are not, so I was fairly shocked to stumble across it in the middle of your post. It would not have damaged your point to warn those who find such things traumatic beforehand, and neglecting to do so is, to be dark-artsy for a moment, hardly strengthening your claim to be the empathic one in this discussion.

As for whether I would like to live in a world where people are willing to torture me and my loved ones if they think it's justified - I already live in such a world. This is a thing humans do. Emotional appeals are, in fact, noticeably more effective at getting people to do this than cold utility calculations. So yes, I would rather people based their atrocities on a rigorous epistemic foundation rather than how those guys are The Enemy and must be fought, no matter the cost. For the children!

I'm well aware of the dangers of self-deception, as should anyone trying to make such calculations be. But it's even easier when you're relying on outrage rather than rationality.

Finally, it's interesting that you claim it's OK to make use of dark arts techniques to (attempt to) manipulate us, because this is so important that the usual LessWrong standards of trying to minimise bias, mindkilling and generally help people discern the correct position rather than the one that's covered in applause lights. Isn't truth and so on another precommtment you shouldn't break just because the expected utility is so high?

Comment author: Multiheaded 24 May 2013 01:15:25PM 2 points [-]

So yes, I would rather people based their atrocities on a rigorous epistemic foundation rather than how those guys are The Enemy and must be fought, no matter the cost.

Has such a thing actually happened even once in human history?

Comment author: MugaSofer 27 May 2013 10:34:57AM *  2 points [-]

Not yet (to my knowledge.)

Maybe someday, if we manage to raise the sanity waterline enough, and if everyone who tries it doesn't get denounced as giving aid an comfort to the Enemy for even considering the idea.

EDIT: Possible example:

You should never, ever murder an innocent person who's helped you, even if it's the right thing to do; because it's far more likely that you've made a mistake, than that murdering an innocent person who helped you is the right thing to do.

Sound reasonable?

During World War II, it became necessary to destroy Germany's supply of deuterium, a neutron moderator, in order to block their attempts to achieve a fission chain reaction. Their supply of deuterium was coming at this point from a captured facility in Norway. A shipment of heavy water was on board a Norwegian ferry ship, the SF Hydro. Knut Haukelid and three others had slipped on board the ferry in order to sabotage it, when the saboteurs were discovered by the ferry watchman. Haukelid told him that they were escaping the Gestapo, and the watchman immediately agreed to overlook their presence. Haukelid "considered warning their benefactor but decided that might endanger the mission and only thanked him and shook his hand." (Richard Rhodes, The Making of the Atomic Bomb.) So the civilian ferry Hydro sank in the deepest part of the lake, with eighteen dead and twenty-nine survivors. Some of the Norwegian rescuers felt that the German soldiers present should be left to drown, but this attitude did not prevail, and four Germans were rescued. And that was, effectively, the end of the Nazi atomic weapons program.

-Ethical Injuctions

Comment author: Multiheaded 23 May 2013 06:25:34PM *  -2 points [-]

Taking abstract ideas too seriously and unreservedly privileging them over your moral emotion is a terribly, terribly dangerous thing. And it tends to corrupt the one who would make such a choice, too.

Would you like to live in a world where people thought that doing these things to you and yours could ever be justified? Sure, the apologists would say it's only forgivable in dire circumstances, only for the greater good - but still, wouldn't you prefer as firm a precommitment as possible?

And no, I'm not sorry for exposing you to such content. The enormity of the moral commitments at stake is too great for me not to "manipulate" you. The language of simplistic utilitarianism does not have enough bandwidth to express the weight of such commitments, so I have to draw your attention to them through "emotional" appeals.

"You stipulate that the only possible way to save five innocent lives is to murder one innocent person, and this murder will definitely save the five lives, and that these facts are known to me with effective certainty. But since I am running on corrupted hardware, I can't occupy the epistemic state you want me to imagine. Therefore I reply that, in a society of Artificial Intelligences worthy of personhood and lacking any inbuilt tendency to be corrupted by power, it would be right for the AI to murder the one innocent person to save five, and moreover all its peers would agree. However, I refuse to extend this reply to myself, because the epistemic state you ask me to imagine, can only exist among other kinds of people than human beings."

Instead of shutting up and multiplying, might it be wiser to shut up and obey our Glorious Leader?

Comment author: nshepperd 23 May 2013 07:07:13PM 0 points [-]

And no, I'm not sorry for exposing you to such content.

What the fuck? Causing unnecessary psychological damage to anyone reading this page—even more so just for the sake of some stupid political point—is not acceptable. Downvoted.

Comment author: Multiheaded 23 May 2013 07:29:15PM 2 points [-]

I'm not the one willing to tolerate such acts given a counterfactual excuse, or measure them on an easily subverted one-dimensional scale. If they occur in the world, I not only wish to be fully aware of them, I wish that others would not be able to easily shrink from considering them either. A detached discussion of faraway horrible events is a luxury and a privilege, and people who want to participate in it should at least pay a toll of properly visualizing the consequences.

Comment author: nshepperd 24 May 2013 05:08:57PM *  1 point [-]

I don't care who has what bullshit political opinions here. No-one gave you the authority to emotionally traumatize the readers of this site "for the greater good". Especially when you could have even just added a trigger warning to the top of your post and it would not have diminished your argument in the slightest. Frankly, if you're going to be a dick you don't need to be here.

Comment author: Multiheaded 16 May 2013 08:51:26PM *  1 point [-]

The culture there is -not- conducive to human rights; its next door neighbors are sentencing people to jail or death for the crime of apostasy.

Oh? Culture? I wonder what you'd say about German or Japanese "culture" circa 1945, and the historical trends of their respect for human rights. (Especially the treatment of different ethnic groups.)

Or, conversely, about Afghanistan in the 1960s. Certainly Afghanistan started out with more disadvantages than Saudi Arabia, and no oil wealth. Yet the cultural changes there were not rolled back even under the communist regime - the emancipation of women, rural education, etc went on like in other Soviet client states. It took the American-armed, American-sponsored fundamentalist thugs to turn the clock back to misery and domination.

Comment author: [deleted] 16 May 2013 09:43:03PM *  2 points [-]

I find OW's comparison of Chilean culture with that of its neighbors really perplexing, as Chile is vastly different from most of South America. For example, it's a massive outlier on the CPI map.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 17 May 2013 01:49:14AM 3 points [-]

Do you know how this came to be? I could imagine a Pinochet supporter claiming credit for this.

Comment author: OrphanWilde 16 May 2013 09:47:00PM 4 points [-]

The culture comparison was between Dubai and its neighbors; I only brought Chile up because I figured I might as well go all-in on the "Supporting asshole dictators who I figure managed to do more good than bad" front.