James_Miller comments on Rationality Quotes June 2013 - Less Wrong

3 Post author: Thomas 03 June 2013 03:08AM

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Comment author: James_Miller 01 June 2013 03:37:56PM *  6 points [-]

Since as lukeprog writes one of the methods for becoming happier is to "Develop the habit of gratitude" here is a quote of stuff to be thankful for: "

  • The taxes I pay because it means that I am employed

  • The clothes that fit a little too snug because it means I have enough to eat

  • My shadow who watches me work because it means I am out in the sunshine

  • A lawn that has to be mowed, windows that have to be washed, and gutters that need fixing because it means I have a home

  • The spot I find at the far end of the parking lot because it means I am capable of walking

  • All the complaining I hear about our government because it means we have the freedom of speech

  • The lady behind me in church who sings off key because it means that I can hear

  • The huge pile of laundry and ironing because it means my loved ones are nearby

  • The alarm that goes off in the early morning because it means that I'm alive"

Comment author: TheOtherDave 01 June 2013 03:48:42PM 14 points [-]

I would still have enough to eat if my clothes fit, I would still have a home if my lawn were self-mowing, I would still be able to hear if she sang more tunefully, I would still be alive if I didn't set my alarm, etc. Taking advantage of these sorts of moments as opportunities to practice gratitude is a fine practice, but it's far better to practice gratitude for the thing I actually want (enough to eat, a home, hearing, life, etc.) than for the indicators of it I'd prefer to be rid of.

Comment author: James_Miller 01 June 2013 04:11:00PM 1 point [-]

The goal is to turn something that would otherwise cause you distress into a tool of your own happiness. When something bad happens to you seek a legitimate reason of why it's a sign of something positive in your life.

Comment author: Jiro 01 June 2013 05:04:33PM 3 points [-]

The idea that we try to optimize happiness in the sense you imply is a simplification. Blissful ignorance provides happiness, but most people don't consider it a worthy goal. Yet this suggestion is basically "try to achieve blissful ignorance, rather than not liking bad things". It does not follow that because X is not possible without Y, and Y is good, therefore X is good. Trying to believe that X is good on these grounds is some variation of willful blindness and blissful ignorance.

Comment author: James_Miller 01 June 2013 05:25:49PM 4 points [-]

Happiness is a state of mind, not a condition of the territory.

Blissful ignorance provides happiness

True by tautology.

It does not follow that because X is not possible without Y, and Y is good, therefore X is good. Trying to believe that X is good on these grounds is some variation of willful blindness and blissful ignorance.

I completely agree. But the following is correct:

X is not possible without Y, and Y makes me happy, therefore when I encounter X, I as a rational person who seeks useful emotions and wishes to raise my level of happiness, would benefit from being able to use the relationship between X and Y to raise my happiness even if my brain would lower my happiness if it encountered X and didn't consider the relationship between X and Y.

Comment author: Jiro 02 June 2013 02:41:56AM 0 points [-]

No rational person (at least no rational person without extremely atypical priorities) "wishes to raise his level of happiness". Few people think that an ideal state for them to be in would be to be drugged into perfect happiness. This suggestion is basically drugging yourself into happiness without the drugs, but keeping the salient aspect of drugs--namely, that the happiness has no connection with there being a desirable situation in the outside world.

Comment author: William_Quixote 02 June 2013 11:00:48PM 4 points [-]

You may be thinking your priorities are more typical than they are. A straight forward utilitarian might think its a reasonable view / goal. There are lots of people out there.

As a more general point rationality doesn't speak to end goals, it speaks to achieving those goals. See orthogonality hypothesis.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 09 June 2013 02:13:38PM 3 points [-]

People who are depressed can quite reasonably want to raise their level of happiness-- their baseline is below what makes sense for their situation.

There's a difference between wanting to raise one's level of happiness and wanting to raise it as high as possible.

Comment author: James_Miller 02 June 2013 02:52:45AM 2 points [-]

I didn't mean to imply that a rational person should be willing to pay any possible price to raise his happiness.

Comment author: roystgnr 04 June 2013 06:21:39PM 1 point [-]

Drugs reduce the amount of concern you have for the real world. Taking greater notice of necessary relationships between observations increases the amount of concern you have for the real world.

Comment author: DanArmak 01 June 2013 06:10:02PM 8 points [-]

The alarm that goes off in the early morning because it means that I'm alive

That just doesn't sound appropriate. It's as if you're saying, the alarm means I have to live through another day which I'll hate, but it's still better than not living at all, and that's the best thing I can find to be happy about every morning!

You might as well say: I'm glad I'm sick, because that means I'm not dead yet.

Comment author: CCC 02 June 2013 03:36:56PM 1 point [-]

If you hate every day, then you need to make some changes to your life. Finding a job that you enjoy might be a good first step.

Comment author: Raemon 02 June 2013 03:42:27PM 0 points [-]

The point of the entire post was to be thankful for things that you normally think of as annoying.

Comment author: BillyOblivion 07 June 2013 05:11:26AM 3 points [-]

Pain is good, it tells you you're still alive.

All in all though, I'd rather have the alive w/out the pain. At least as far as I know.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 09 June 2013 05:21:09AM -1 points [-]

All in all though, I'd rather have the alive w/out the pain.

That depends on precisely what is meant by living without pain.

Comment author: BillyOblivion 10 June 2013 03:26:23PM *  0 points [-]

Head is an achin' and knees are abraded
Plates in my neck and stitches updated
Toes are a cracking and Tendons inflamed
These are a few of my favorite pains

But yes, the author of those books is mostly correct, there's some kinds of pain that serve as a useful warning function. Those are good and we should be grateful.

Others are artifacts of historical stupidity. I've learned those lessons and reminding me of them is useless.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 12 June 2013 05:45:01AM 1 point [-]

Others are artifacts of historical stupidity. I've learned those lessons and reminding me of them is useless.

Then why do you keep ignoring them?

Comment author: Nisan 02 June 2013 04:16:58PM 3 points [-]

Here is another quote by Borges of stuff to be thankful for. English.

Comment author: Xachariah 09 June 2013 01:47:42AM *  6 points [-]

I'm fairly certain that's not how you're supposed to develop a habit of gratitude. It's not about doublithinking yourself into believing you like things that you dislike; it's to help you notice more things you like.

I've been doing a gratitude journal. I write three short notes from the last day where I was thankful for something a person did (eg, saving me a brownie or something). Then I take the one that makes me happiest and write a 1 paragraph description of what occurred, how I felt, and such that writing the paragraph makes me relive the moment. Then I write out a note (that is usually later transcribed) to a past person in my gratitude journal.

When I think of that person or think back to that day, I'm immediately able to recall any nice things they did that I wrote down. Also, as I go through my life, I'm constantly looking for things to be thankful for, and notice and remember them more easily.

If you do something like in the quote, it seem more likely that you'll remember negative things (that you pretend to be positive). It goes against the point of the exercise.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 09 June 2013 02:14:47PM 1 point [-]

Here's another way to do gratitude wrong: thinking about the good things turns into "this is what can be lost".

Comment author: ChristianKl 06 June 2013 10:11:18PM *  -1 points [-]

The lady behind me in church who sings off key because it means that I can hear

It also means that you are in church.

A lawn that has to be mowed, windows that have to be washed, and gutters that need fixing because it means I have a home

Lawns are not required to have a home. Especially mowing them isn't. Windows don't need constant cleaning.

The alarm that goes off in the early morning because it means that I'm alive"

It's possible to wake up without an alarm.