Baughn comments on Rationality Quotes June 2013 - Less Wrong

3 Post author: Thomas 03 June 2013 03:08AM

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Comment author: Baughn 06 June 2013 12:54:34AM * 0 points [-]

I added more detail in a sibling post, but it can't be that universal; I practically never do that at all, basically only for thoughts that are destined to actually be spoken. (Or written, etc.)

Actually, I believe I used to do so most of the time (..about twenty years ago, before the age of ten), but then made a concerted effort to stop doing so on the basis that pretending to speak aloud takes more time. Those memories may be inaccurate, though.

Comment author: ChristianKl comment score below threshold [+] (11 children)

Comment author: itaibn0 06 June 2013 10:21:43PM 4 points [-]

You're claiming that you understand his thought better than he does. That is a severe accusation and is not epistemologically justified. Also, I can't recall off the top of my head any time somebody insulted me, I think my reaction would depend on the context, but I don't see why it will involve imagined words.

Comment author: ChristianKl 06 June 2013 11:12:23PM 1 point [-]

That is a severe accusation and is not epistemologically justified.

How do you know that there's no epistemological justification?

So, how do I know? Empirical experience at NLP seminars. At the beginning plenty of people say that they don't have an internal dialoge, that they can't view mental images or that they can't perceive emotions within their own body.

It's something that usually get's fixed in a short amount of time.

Around two month ago I was chatting with a girl who had two voices in her head. One that did big picture thinking and another that did analytic thinking. She herself wasn't consciously aware that one of the voices came from the left and the other from the right.

After I told her which voice came from which direction, she checked and I was right. I can't diagnose what Baughn does with internal dialog in the same depth through online conversation but there nothing that stops me from putting forth generally observations about people who believe that they have no internal dialog until they were taught to perceive it.

I think my reaction would depend on the context, but I don't see why it will involve imagined words.

Yes, you don't see imagined words. That's kind of the point of words. You either hear them or don't hear them. If you try to see them you will fail. If you try to perceive your internal dialog that way you won't see any internal dialog.

But why did I pick that example? It's emotional. Being insulted frequently get's people to reflect on themselves and the other person. They might ask themselves: "Why did he do that?" or answer to themselves "No, he has no basis for making that claim." In addition judgement is usually done via words.

I'm however not sure whether I can build up enough awareness in Baughn via text based online conversation that he can pick up his mental dialog.

Also, I can't recall off the top of my head any time somebody insulted me,

If you don't have strong internal dialog it doesn't surprise me that you aren't good at recalling a type of event that usually goes with strong internal dialog.

Comment author: Baughn 21 January 2014 05:33:54PM 0 points [-]

Hm~

Those are interesting claims, but I think you misunderstood a little. I do have an internal monologue, sometimes; I just don't bother to use it, a lot of the time. It depends on circumstances.

Comment author: ChristianKl 21 January 2014 10:17:43PM 0 points [-]

You moved in the span of half a year from: "I'm pretty sure I don't have a internal monologue, I don't know what the term is supposed to mean." to "I do have an internal monologue, sometimes".

That's basically my point. With a bit of direction there something that you could recognize there to be an internal monologue in your mind.

Of course once you recognize it, you aren't in the state anymore where you would say: "I'm pretty sure I don't have a internal monologue." That's typical for those kind of issues.

I was basically right with my claim that "I'm pretty sure I don't have a internal monologue." is wrong, and did what it took to for you to recognize it. itaibn0 claimed that the claim was etymologically unsubstantiated. It was substantiated and turned out to be right.

Comment author: Baughn 22 January 2014 12:26:32AM 0 points [-]

Actually, I would have made the same claim half a year ago. The only difference is that I have a different model of what the words "internal monologue" mean - that, and I've done some extra modelling and introspection for a novel.

Comment author: ChristianKl 22 January 2014 01:27:33PM 0 points [-]

Yes, now you have a mental model that allows you to believe "I do have an internal monologue, sometimes" back then you didn't. What I did write was intended to create that model in your mind.

To me it seems like it worked. It's also typical that people backport their mental models into the past when they remember what happened in the past.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 09 June 2013 02:31:06PM 0 points [-]

So, how do I know? Empirical experience at NLP seminars. At the beginning plenty of people say that they don't have an internal dialoge, that they can't view mental images or that they can't perceive emotions within their own body.

It's something that usually get's fixed in a short amount of time.

How does it get fixed?

Comment author: ChristianKl 10 June 2013 04:51:56AM 0 points [-]

First different people use different system with underlying strength. Some people like Tesla can visualize a chair and the chair they visualize get's perceived by them the same way as a real chair. You don't get someone who doesn't think he can visualize pictures to that level of visualization ability by doing a few tricks.

In general you do something that triggers a reaction in someone. You observe the person and when she has the image or has the dialog you stop and tell the person to focus their attention on it. There are cases where that's enough.

There are also cases where a person has a real reason why they repress a certain way of perception. A person with a strong emotional trauma might have completely stopped relating to emotions within their body to escape the emotional pain. Then it's necessary for the person to become into a state where they are resourceful enough to face the pain so that they can process it.

A third layer would consist of different suggestion that it's possible to perceive something new. Both at a conscious level and on a deep metaphoric level.

Comment author: Estarlio 06 June 2013 11:31:09PM 0 points [-]

What's your internal reaction when someone insults yourself?

I feel like I'm floating. Adrenaline rush, the same feeling I used to get when fights were imminent as a kid.

Comment author: ChristianKl 06 June 2013 11:32:38PM 0 points [-]

How do you know how you want to respond to the insult? What mental strategy did you use the last time you were insulted?

Comment author: Estarlio 07 June 2013 12:12:46AM 1 point [-]

I just do what I feel like. And my feelings are generally in line with my previous experiences with the other person. If I feel like they're a reasonable person and generally nice then I feel like giving them the benefit of the doubt, if I feel like they're a total toss-pot then I'm liable to fire back at them. There's so much cached thought that's felt rather than verbalised at that point that it's pretty much a reaction.

Baughn comments on Rationality Quotes June 2013 - Less Wrong

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