wedrifid comments on Many Weak Arguments vs. One Relatively Strong Argument - Less Wrong

20 Post author: JonahSinick 04 June 2013 03:32AM

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Comment author: JonahSinick 04 June 2013 06:44:54PM *  7 points [-]

Responses below. As a meta-remark, your comment doesn't steelman my argument, and I think that steelmanning arguments helps keep the conversation on track, so I'd appreciate it if you were to do so in the future.

Penrose is a worrisome case to bring as an example, since he is in fact wrong, and therefore you're giving an example where your reasoning leads to the wrong conclusion.

The point of the example is that one shouldn't decisively conclude that Penrose is wrong — one should instead hedge.

Perhaps a relevant analogy is that of the using seat belts to guard against car accidents — one shouldn't say "The claim that I'm going to get into a potentially fatal car accident is in fact wrong, so I'm not going to wear seat belts." You may argue that the relevant probabilities are sufficiently different so that the analogy isn't a good one. If so, I disagree.

If you can't easily find examples where your reasoning led you to a new correct conclusion instead of new sympathy toward a wrong conclusion, this is worrisome.

There are many such examples. My post extended to a length of eight pages without my going into them, and I wanted to keep the post to a reasonable length. I'm open to the possibility of writing another post with other examples. The reason that I chose the Penrose example is to vividly illustrate the shift in my epistemology.

In general, I tend to flag recounts of epistemological innovations which lead to new sympathy toward a wrong conclusion, as though the one were displaying compassion for a previously hated enemy, for in epistemology this is not virtue.

One would expect this sort of thing to sometimes happen by chance in the course of updating based on incoming evidence. So I don't share your concern.

The Penrose example worries me for other reasons as well, namely it seems like it would be possible to generate hordes and hordes of weak arguments against Penrose; so it's as if because the argument against Penrose is strong, you aren't bothering to try to generate weak arguments; reading this feels like you now prefer weak arguments to strong arguments and don't try to find the many weak arguments once you see a strong argument, which is not good Bayesianism.

I can see how the example might seem disconsonant with my post, and will consider revising the post to clarify. [Edit: I did this.] The point that I intended to make is that I was previously unknowingly ignoring certain nontrivial weak lines of evidence, on the grounds that they weren't strong enough, and that I've recognized this, and have been working on modifying my epistemological framework accordingly.

I don't think that the hordes and hordes of weak arguments that you refer to are collectively strong enough to nullify the argument that one should trust Penrose because he's one of the greatest physicists of the second half of the 20'th century.

You also claim there's a strong argument for Penrose, namely his authority (? wasn't this the kind of reasoning you were arguing against trusting?) but either we have very different domain models here, or you're not using the Bayesian definition of strong evidence as "an argument you would be very unlikely to observe, in a world where the theory is false"

  • I don't remember arguing against trusting authority above – elaborate if you'd like.
  • I wasn't saying that one should give nontrivial credence to Penrose's views based on his authority. I was saying that one should give nontrivial credence to Penrose's views based on the fact that he's a deeper thinker than everybody who I know (in the sense that his accomplishments are deeper than anything that anyone who I know has ever accomplished).
Comment author: wedrifid 04 June 2013 07:41:25PM 7 points [-]

As a meta-remark, your comment doesn't steelman my argument, and I think that steelmanning arguments helps keep the conversation on track, so I'd appreciate it if you were to do so in the future.

Something has gone severely wrong with the 'steelman' concept if it is now being used offensively, to force social obligations onto others. This 'meta-remark' amounts to a demand that if JonahSinick says something stupid then it is up to others to search related concept space to find the nearest possible good argument for a better conclusion and act as if Jonah had said that instead of what he actually said. That is an entirely unreasonable expectation of his audience and expecting all readers to come up with what amounts to superior content than the post author whenever they make a reply is just ridiculously computationally inefficient.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 05 June 2013 07:54:39PM 17 points [-]

Responses below. As a meta-remark, your comment doesn't steelman my argument, and I think that steelmanning arguments helps keep the conversation on track, so I'd appreciate it if you were to do so in the future.

I have a known problem with this (Anna Salamon told me so, therefore it is true) so Jonah's remark above is a priori plausible. I don't know if I can do so successfully, but will make an effort in this direction.

(It's true that what Jonah means is technically 'principle of charity' used to interpret original intent, not 'steelman' used to repair original intent, but the principle of charity says we should interpret the request above as if he had said 'principle of charity'.)

Comment author: JonahSinick 05 June 2013 08:55:51PM 9 points [-]

(It's true that what Jonah means is technically 'principle of charity' used to interpret original intent, not 'steelman' used to repair original intent, but the principle of charity says we should interpret the request above as if he had said 'principle of charity'.)

:-)

Comment author: JonahSinick 04 June 2013 07:52:33PM *  7 points [-]

Something has gone severely wrong with the 'steelman' concept if it is now being used offensively,

No offense intended :-)

to force social obligations onto others

Request, not force

it is up to others to search related concept space to find the nearest possible good argument for a better conclusion

My remark that steelmanning keeps the discussion on track is genuine in intention. I agree that norms for steelmanning could conceivably become too strong for efficient discourse, but I think that at the margin, it would be better if people were doing much more steelmanning.

Comment author: thomblake 04 June 2013 08:34:29PM 7 points [-]

I think the concept you're looking for is the principle of charity. Steel man is what you do to someone else's argument in order to make sure yours is good, after you've defeated their actual argument. Principle of charity is what you do in discourse to make sure you're having the best possible discussion.

If you think Eliezer should have steelmanned your argument then you think he has already defeated it - before he even commented!

Comment author: JonahSinick 04 June 2013 09:33:07PM 2 points [-]

I guess I didn't mean that he didn't steelman my argument, I meant that he didn't steelman the things that he was objecting to. For example, he could have noted that I did give an example of the type that he seems to have been looking for, rather than focusing on the fact that the Penrose example isn't of the type that he was looking for. I agree that there's substantial overlap between this and the principle of charity.

Comment author: Kawoomba 04 June 2013 07:58:57PM 5 points [-]

It does make for higher quality discussions, especially when posters who command a larger audience are involved. Let's also assume that Jonah knows his shizzle, and that if he wrote something which seems stupid at first glance, he may have merely used an unfortunate phraseology. Where's the fun in shooting down the obvious targets, most readers can do so themselves. Rather skip to the subtle disagreements deep down, where true domina... where more refined and non-obvious counters may be revealed for the readers' benefit.

Comment author: wedrifid 04 June 2013 08:13:17PM *  10 points [-]

Where's the fun in shooting down the obvious targets, most readers can do so themselves.

As one of those readers I would prefer not to have to. I appreciate the effort others put into keeping the garden well tended and saving me the trouble of reading low quality material myself.

Eliezer's reply is the kind of reply that I want to see more of. I strongly oppose shaming 'requests' used to discourage such replies.