jimmy comments on Bad Concepts Repository - Less Wrong

20 Post author: moridinamael 27 June 2013 03:16AM

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Comment author: jimmy 27 June 2013 07:30:34AM 10 points [-]

Also "need". There's always another option, and pretending sufficiently bad options don't exist can interfere with expected value estimations.

And "should" in the moralizing sense. Don't let yourself say "I should do X". Either do it or don't. Yeah, you're conflicted. If you don't know how to resolve it on the spot, at least be honest and say "I don't know whether I want X or not X". As applied to others, don't say "he should do X!". Apparently he's not doing X, and if you're specific about why it is less frustrating and effective solutions are more visible. "He does X because it's clearly in his best interests, even despite my shaming. Oh..." - or again, if you can't figure it out, be honest about it "I have no idea why he does X"

Comment author: [deleted] 28 June 2013 11:40:42AM *  5 points [-]

Don't let yourself say "I should do X". Either do it or don't.

That would work nice if I was so devoid of dynamic inconsistency that “I don't feel like getting out of bed” would reliably entail “I won't regret it if I stay in bed”; but as it stands, I sometimes have to tell myself “I should get out of bed” in order to do stuff I don't feel like doing but I know I would regret not doing.

Comment author: jimmy 29 June 2013 01:09:27AM 1 point [-]

This John Holt quote is about exactly this.

Comment author: Larks 27 June 2013 10:50:25AM 3 points [-]

if you're specific about why it is less frustrating

This is a fact about you, not about "should". If "should" is part of the world, you shouldn't remove it from your map just because you find other people frustrating.

and effective solutions are more visible.

One common, often effective strategy is to tell people they should do the thing.

if you can't figure it out, be honest about it "I have no idea why he does X"

The correct response to meeting a child murderer is "No, Stop! You should not do that!", not "Please explain why you are killing that child." (also physical force)

Comment author: jimmy 27 June 2013 05:40:38PM 5 points [-]

This is a fact about you, not about "should". If "should" is part of the world, you shouldn't remove it from your map just because you find other people frustrating.

It's not about having conveniently blank maps. It's about having more precise maps.

I realize that you won't be able to see this as obviously true, but I want you to at least understand what my claim is: after fleshing out the map with specific details, your emotional approach to the problem changes and you become aware of new possible actions without removing any old actions from your list of options - and without changing your preferences. Additionally, the majority of the time this happens, "shoulding" is no longer the best choice available.

One common, often effective strategy is to tell people they should do the thing.

Sometimes, sure. I still use the word like that sometimes, but I try to stay aware that it's short hand for "you'd get more of what you want if you do"/"I and others will shame you if you don't". It's just that so often that's not enough.

The correct response to meeting a child murderer is "No, Stop! You should not do that!", not "Please explain why you are killing that child." (also physical force)

And this is a good example. "Correct" responses oughtta get good results; what result do you anticipate? Surely not "Oh, sorry. didn't realize... I'll stop now". It sure feels appropriate to 'should' here, but that's a quirk of your psychology that focuses you on one action to the exclusion of others.

Personally, I wouldn't "should" a murderer any more than I'd "should" a paperclip maximizer. I'd use force, threats of force and maybe even calculated persuasion. Funny enough, were I to attempt to therapy a child murderer (and bold claim here - I think I could do it), I'd start with "so why do ya kill kids?"

Comment author: TheOtherDave 27 June 2013 05:48:20PM 1 point [-]

Mostly, the result I anticipate from "should"ing a norm-violator is that other members of my tribe in the vicinity will be marginally more likely to back me up and enforce the tribal norms I've invoked by "should"ing. That is, it's a political act that exerts social pressure. (Among the tribal members who might be affected by this is the norm-violator themselves.)

Alternative formulas like "you'll get more of what you want if you don't do that!" or "I prefer you not do that!" or "I and others will shame you if you do that!" don't seem to work as well for this purpose.

But of course you're correct that some norm-violators don't respond to that at all, and that some norm-violations (e.g. murder) are sufficiently problematic that we prefer the violator be physically prevented from continuing the violation.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 28 June 2013 01:49:17AM 2 points [-]

Also "need".

I can't remember where I heard the anecdote, but I remember some small boy discovering the power of "need" with "I need a cookie!".

Comment author: Fhyve 02 July 2013 04:42:17AM 1 point [-]

I think any correct use of "need" is either implicitly or explicitly a phrase of the form "I need X (in order to do Y)".