bogus comments on Bad Concepts Repository - Less Wrong

20 Post author: moridinamael 27 June 2013 03:16AM

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Comment author: PhilGoetz 29 June 2013 04:24:52PM *  0 points [-]

I'm afraid my brain chose to remember the jogging path, the view of the Potomac, the bridges, and some of the joggers, but nothing about what we said. If you converted me to your view, I have lapsed back into my old ways. I have to learn everything several times.

I don't see how I've misunderstood your claim. I realize you claim harmony doesn't cut reality at the joints. I think that's an aesthetic judgment. You say that Westergardian theory allows one to treat the music of Berg, Schoenberg, and Webern as belonging to the same school as earlier Western music, as if this were a point in favor of that theory. To me, it is a proof that the theory is both wrong and destructive, because my aesthetic sense says that music is crap. We agree that the test of a theory of music is whether it helps one compose good music. I've never tried to write music using either theory, but if using Westergardian theory allows one to write music like that of Berg, my aesthetic judgements, which are different than yours, say that proves it is a bad theory.

Perhaps if I had been raised in a culture that used Westergardian composition techniques, I would be acclimatized to it, and would appreciate that music, and have a low opinion of harmonic theory. Even supposing that were true, which I doubt, it would only mean that this is culturally relative. Not a failure of rationality.

It seems to me that to claim that harmonic theory is objectively wrong, you must also claim that the tastes of people like me, who like things written using harmonic theory and dislike things not using harmonic theory, are also objectively wrong.

If you showed that Westergardian theory gave a simpler explanation of the music that I like, that would help convince me that it was a superior theory. (I don't expect you can do this in a blog post.) But even then, calling it a bad concept would be like calling Newtonian physics a bad concept because it doesn't explain motion at relativistic speeds.

Comment author: bogus 29 June 2013 07:15:29PM *  4 points [-]

You say that Westergardian theory allows one to treat the music of Berg, Schoenberg, and Webern as belonging to the same school as earlier Western music, as if this were a point in favor of that theory. To me, it is a proof that the theory is both wrong and destructive, because my aesthetic sense says that music is crap.

This is not really true, for a variety of reasons:

  1. Schenker and Westergaard do not claim that their theory can explain atonal music. A claim that Schenckerian/Westergaardian analysis helps explain tonal music is much stronger than the claim about atonal music, and should be evaluated on its own merits. In particular, we know that Schencker was aware of early atonal music, and didn't like it.
  2. People's "aesthetic sense" seems to be quite dependent on their musical experience. Modern atonal music was the result of a very gradual development of taking existing (e.g. tonal) music and adding more and more "atonality" (whatever that means: some would say dissonance, others would talk about modulation, or complexity). People generally learn to appreciate atonal music by retracing these developments gradually, and listening to more and more challenging pieces. Thus, while your aesthetic sense says that this music sucks, this may not prove much.
  3. There is plenty of music that was clearly "not written using harmonic theory" insofar as harmonic theory (e.g. as detailed by Rameau's Treatise on Harmony) postdates it. And yet, Renaissance and Baroque period music (and even a lot of secular Medieval music) is generally appreciated, just as much as music written after harmony-based theories became established.

If you showed that Westergardian theory gave a simpler explanation of the music that I like, that would help convince me that it was a superior theory.

I do agree that this would be quite relevant.