= 27d567bc2d48d9f40e9ccc20ea370b15)
komponisto comments on Bad Concepts Repository - Less Wrong
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
= 783df68a0f980790206b9ea87794c5b6)
Loading…= b715d02e85f7b3b4ae65ca3d3e450868)
Subscribe to RSS Feed
Powered by Reddit
= f037147d6e6c911a85753b9abdedda8d)
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
Comments (204)
I'm afraid my brain chose to remember the jogging path, the view of the Potomac, the bridges, and some of the joggers, but nothing about what we said. If you converted me to your view, I have lapsed back into my old ways. I have to learn everything several times.
I don't see how I've misunderstood your claim. I realize you claim harmony doesn't cut reality at the joints. I think that's an aesthetic judgment. You say that Westergardian theory allows one to treat the music of Berg, Schoenberg, and Webern as belonging to the same school as earlier Western music, as if this were a point in favor of that theory. To me, it is a proof that the theory is both wrong and destructive, because my aesthetic sense says that music is crap. We agree that the test of a theory of music is whether it helps one compose good music. I've never tried to write music using either theory, but if using Westergardian theory allows one to write music like that of Berg, my aesthetic judgements, which are different than yours, say that proves it is a bad theory.
Perhaps if I had been raised in a culture that used Westergardian composition techniques, I would be acclimatized to it, and would appreciate that music, and have a low opinion of harmonic theory. Even supposing that were true, which I doubt, it would only mean that this is culturally relative. Not a failure of rationality.
It seems to me that to claim that harmonic theory is objectively wrong, you must also claim that the tastes of people like me, who like things written using harmonic theory and dislike things not using harmonic theory, are also objectively wrong.
If you showed that Westergardian theory gave a simpler explanation of the music that I like, that would help convince me that it was a superior theory. (I don't expect you can do this in a blog post.) But even then, calling it a bad concept would be like calling Newtonian physics a bad concept because it doesn't explain motion at relativistic speeds.
I understand and sympathize. (It wasn't that I thought I converted you to my view, but that I thought I had done a better job of conveying what my complaints about harmonic theory were.)
The misunderstanding is most evident when you write a phrase like:
which begs the whole question. You assume that harmonic theory is an accurate description of "how those things are written", which is the very thing I deny. You seem to be confusing music theory with music, which is like mixing up the map and the territory.
Not quite. At least, the emphasis is on "helps", not on "good". You should think of a work of music (including its aesthetic qualities) being held fixed when we evaluate theories; the parameter we're measuring that determines how good the theory is is how easily the theory allows us to produce the music in question.
(Furthermore, it certainly can't be the case that harmonic theory's classifications track your likes and dislikes. After all, you apparently don't like Beethoven's Great Fugue, and yet as far as harmonic theory is concerned it's in the same category as his other works, which you do like.)
I disagree that harmonic theory is anywhere near as good as Newtonian physics. I would instead compare it -- unfavorably -- to pre-Darwinian theories of biodiversity. I specifically believe it to be one of the worst theories of all time (whereas Newtonian physics is one of the best).
I don't understand music theory enough to continue the debate. I don't even understand what you mean by harmonic theory, since I assume you don't mean we should throw away 1-3-5 chords. I have noticed that Baroque music tends more often than classical or romantic music to have passages that starts on one chord, and the different parts walk their different ways to another chord with no pivot chords, just walk the bass and damn the torpedoes in between. is that related to what you're talking about?
By harmonic theory I mean the idea proposed by Jean-Philippe Rameau in 1722 of analyzing music as a succession of simultaneities ("chords"), to each of which is assigned a "root", and with the order of chords being governed by relationships among the roots.
The above doesn't make any literal sense, but if what you mean by this is that Baroque music violates Rameau's rules of root progression more often than later music (which, believe it or not, is actually what I think you mean), then this is almost certainly not the case: generally speaking, music gets more complex as you go forward in history, and the more complex it is, the more likely it is to crash Rameau's theory.
(Yes, I know that popular histories tell you that Classical music was simpler than Baroque. This is wrong.)
The reality is that the torpedoes were always damned. Rameau and his theoretical successors mistook certain superficial patterns (which automatically arise in particularly simple musical contexts) for underlying laws. The actual underlying laws were discovered by Schenker and Westergaard.
Would you deny that Baroque music deviates from common chords more often than classical music does?
Yes. Look at how many Baroque vs. Classical entries there are on this list of examples of augmented sixth chords, for instance.
That appears to be an effect of the data compiler's bias. This list of I-5-7 chords from the same source has the same ratio.
From Wikipedia:
This implies that its use increased over time, and in particular was greater in the Classical and Romantic periods than in the Baroque.
That's an argument that classical music uses more augmented sixths chords, which are not especially uncommon. Contrast that with something like the chord held at the start of Bach's Fugue in D minor -- it's got a C#, a D, and an E it in; what the hell is it?
That's what I was talking about when I said "I have noticed that Baroque music tends more often than classical or romantic music to have passages that starts on one chord, and the different parts walk their different ways to another chord with no pivot chords, just walk the bass and damn the torpedoes in between," which makes perfectly simple literarl sense. Classical music moves from one resolved chord to another thru a series of pivot chords. Baroque music sometimes just walks the bass, and maybe the top note also, by one half-step per "chord" until it arrives at the destination chord, passing through intermediate states that aren't any kind of recognized chord, certainly nothing so common as an augmented 6th.
Now, if when we say Baroque you're thinking Vivaldi and I'm thinking Bach's organ music, that could account for the difference of opinion.
Bach wrote umpteen different fugues in D minor, none of which is so obviously better or more important than the others as to deserve the title "Bach's Fugue in D minor". And it's kinda unusual for a fugue to begin with any sort of held chord, though maybe whichever one you're thinking of does.
Would you care to be more specific?
I bet PhilGoetz is talking about the toccata in the famous Toccata and Fugue in D minor, BWV 565, which has a C# diminished 7 over a D pedal tone (about 30 seconds into this recording).
Yeah, I thought he might be talking about that too, so I looked at the score. The chord immediately before the start of the fugue doesn't fit Phil's description.
"Uncommon" doesn't mean anything without reference to a time period; the point is that they are more uncommon in the Baroque period than in the Classical. The Classical period uses a richer "vocabulary of chords" than the Baroque, if one insists on thinking in such terms (as a Westergaardian, I don't think in terms of a "vocabulary of chords", of course).
First of all "Bach's Fugue in D minor" is highly ambiguous; Wikipedia lists 10 such works by J.S. Bach alone (BWV 538, 539, 554, 565, 851, 875, 899, 903, 905, and 948).
But you can find a chord containing those same three pitch-classes (along with G# and B) in the first movement of Mozart's Symphony No. 29 (p.4, second system, 4th measure, 1st and 3rd quarter).
"Pivot chord" is a technical term in harmonic theory (which, again, I don't subscribe to) meaning a chord shared by two different keys which is used in modulating between them. You don't appear to be using this term correctly here (we're not talking about key changes), and I'm not sure exactly what you do mean. "Resolved chord" is not a standard term at all, but maybe you mean "consonant chord". (?) However, both Baroque and Classical music "move from one [consonant] chord to another" (well, except when moving to dissonant chords, which also occurs in both periods...) So this sentence reads like confused gobbledygook to me. A musical example of the phenomenon which you think occurs in Baroque music but not Classical would help (but we know it isn't "a chord with C#, D, and E", as the Mozart example I gave shows).
You just have to compare apples to apples. If the most complex works of J.S. Bach are what you mean by "Baroque", then the most complex works of Haydn, Mozart, and (at least early) Beethoven have to be what you mean by "Classical".
I think what actually accounts for the "difference of opinion" is that you underestimate the complexity of Classical works.
Indeed! Thus harmonic theory is inadequate even to the description (mere description, mind you) of Baroque music, let alone Classical or Romantic.