vericrat comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 19, chapter 88-89 - Less Wrong

12 Post author: Vaniver 30 June 2013 01:22AM

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Comment author: vericrat 01 July 2013 06:11:01AM 28 points [-]

When I first read the end of the chapter, my thought was that Quirrell hadn't arranged the incident; he had thought it was a "surprisingly good day" which suggested to me that he hadn't expected the troll.

After reading comments, I became less sure about that; someone suggested that Quirrell might have simply not intended for Harry to be at the scene and in danger. This seems plausible, but one thing still makes it difficult for me to believe it was Quirrell.

The troll had been enchanted against sunlight:

someone had enchanted the troll against sunlight before using it as a murder weapon and might also have strengthened it in other ways.

And Harry transfigured part of the troll:

Harry visualized a one-millimeter-wide cross-section through the enemy's brain, and Transfigured it into sulfuric acid.

But before, it was stated that Quirrell could not charm something that Harry had Transfigured:

Professor Quirrell could not cast spells on something Harry had Transfigured, for that would be an interaction, however slight, between their magics, but -

For Quirrell to have been behind this, I can see only two possibilities: 1) Harry can transfigure something Professor Quirrell has cast spells on, even though Professor Quirrell can't cast spells on something Harry has transfigured, or 2) Quirrell had a confederate (or imperiused lackey) cast the appropriate spells.

If you go with option 2, the increased complexity makes it less likely that it happened (though not necessarily less likely than a given alternative).

Comment author: Qiaochu_Yuan 01 July 2013 06:29:36AM *  10 points [-]

Harry transfigured the inside of the troll. Maybe Quirrell only needed to enchant the outside?

Comment author: ikrase 01 July 2013 08:01:36AM 1 point [-]

Or that the enchantment is somewhat less fixed to the body of the troll?

Or Harry and Quirrel might be wrong about how their magic can touch? Harry never exactly knew the boundaries. He has only the sense of doom and the resonance from the Avadakedvra - Patronus interaction.

Comment author: Michelle_Z 01 July 2013 04:02:21PM 9 points [-]

He touched it. In chapter 56 or 55, I forget which, Harry had to wear a glove to ride the room that Quirrell enchanted. In chapter 89, he picks up the troll by the ear.

Comment author: ikrase 02 July 2013 07:37:49AM 4 points [-]

I don't think that Harry actually knows for sure that he couldn't touch the broom.

Comment author: vericrat 01 July 2013 05:58:42PM 1 point [-]

Good point, I missed the picking the troll up by the ear entirely.

Comment author: maia 01 July 2013 12:09:11PM 3 points [-]

Oh snap. I didn't even notice that problem.

There is a third possibility: Dumbledore brought in the troll to guard the Stone (or other object), as in canon, and he was the one who cast the spells to protect it. I'm unsure about this, because it seems unusually violent for Dumbledore.

Comment author: Izeinwinter 01 July 2013 12:18:40PM 4 points [-]

In canon "Troll" was defense layer number.. 5? Anyone in that deep can fairly be considered to be asking for it. If this is the case, the naive reading of events is that it got loose because someone was cracking the defenses...

Comment author: ygert 01 July 2013 01:59:35PM *  2 points [-]

In canon, there were two different trolls: One that got in and attacked Hermione, and one that was guarding the stone. Two totally different trolls, although many have noted that both were supplied by Quirrell. (And actually, because of this it has become fanon that Quirrell has a talent in dealing with trolls. (Although that Quirrell is a very different person from HPMOR's Hansonian Quirrell, so don't read to much into this with regards to HPMOR.))

Comment author: Desrtopa 01 July 2013 10:19:46PM 5 points [-]

And actually, because of this it has become fanon that Quirrell has a talent in dealing with trolls.

I believe that Quirrell actually stated this in canon. When he admitted in the chamber which held the Philosopher's Stone that he was the one who had supplied the troll for the defenses, he said he had a knack for dealing with them, or something to that effect.

Comment author: vericrat 01 July 2013 05:59:46PM 2 points [-]

Why would Dumbledore enchant the troll against sunlight if it was going to be in the third-floor corridor all along?

Comment author: gwern 01 July 2013 06:14:56PM 15 points [-]

To defend it against anyone with a sunlight-generating spell or who has some acorn potion handy.

Comment author: MugaSofer 29 July 2013 06:34:41PM -1 points [-]

In fact, isn't there such a spell used in Canon?

Comment author: gwern 29 July 2013 09:08:10PM 1 point [-]

There's 'Lumos' but it's never mentioned as a dead-useful defense against trolls so presumably isn't as good as real sunlight or a sunlight-generating spell.

Comment author: MugaSofer 29 July 2013 09:58:05PM *  -1 points [-]

No, I could swear there was an actual ... maybe in one of the movies?

EDIT: I was thinking of this