elharo comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 20, chapter 90 - Less Wrong

9 Post author: palladias 02 July 2013 02:13AM

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Comment author: elharo 02 July 2013 10:44:40AM *  1 point [-]

I'd be very disappointed if this were actually plot relevant. The only hint that this might be where we're going is in Chapter 14 and that rules it out:

You know right up until this moment I had this awful suppressed thought somewhere in the back of my mind that the only remaining answer was that my whole universe was a computer simulation like in the book Simulacron 3 but now even that is ruled out because this little toy ISN'T TURING COMPUTABLE! A Turing machine could simulate going back into a defined moment of the past and computing a different future from there, an oracle machine could rely on the halting behavior of lower-order machines, but what you're saying is that reality somehow self-consistently computes in one sweep using information that hasn't... happened... yet..."

Ironically Harry is wrong about this. In point of fact his world is a simulation, as are all novels and fictional universes (though I have to consider the possibility that Harry's world is still not Turing computable. We don't yet have an existence proof of a computer program that can write fiction.)

Comment author: gjm 02 July 2013 01:22:02PM 3 points [-]

What we see of Harry's world is a simulation and therefore (given a bunch of plausible hypotheses) computable. It doesn't follow that there is any "completion" of Harry's world, filling in all the stuff we don't see, that's computable, still less that there's any "reasonable" completion with that property. So I'd be hesitant to say that Harry's world, simpliciter, is a computable simulation.

Comment author: Decius 02 July 2013 09:37:31PM 0 points [-]

Harry's world isn't Turing Computable from within his world, because it relies on information that hasn't happened yet.

However, in our world, Harry's world doesn't come into existence in the same order that it does in his.

Comment author: ygert 02 July 2013 02:28:41PM 0 points [-]

A lack of a "reasonable" completion with that property I agree with. But one could easily construct a computable completion. Specifically, the null completion. In other words, everything that that we don't see and is irrelevant to the story simply does not exist. (Until or unless it does at a future point have an effect on the story.)

In fact, you could argue that this completion is the "real" one: Until Eliezer includes something into the story, how can we say that it exists?

Comment author: Dentin 02 July 2013 09:30:08PM 1 point [-]

Harry's universe may not be Turing computable in the absolute sense assuming that arbitrary time travel is possible, but with even minor limits you can come up with algorithms that largely work, or will work most of the time.

As an example, run the simulation forward taking snapshots at every point until a backward looking event occurs. Take the snapshots of the two time periods and brute force search for a solution (any solution) that can link the two time periods together without breaking constraints. If a solution is found, throw all the intermediate snapshots away and replace them with the found solution. Otherwise, keep the existing data and fail the time travel event in some fashion.

My understanding is that it is possible to find solutions to these kinds of problems (otherwise we wouldn't know and busy beaver numbers.) It's just not possible to find them via some general, easily computable algorithm.

Comment author: Alsadius 03 July 2013 03:31:12AM 2 points [-]

This could explain the six-hour limit on Time-Turners - that's the maximum lookback the Atlantis algorithm allows.