Lumifer comments on Why Eat Less Meat? - Less Wrong

48 Post author: peter_hurford 23 July 2013 09:30PM

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Comment author: Lumifer 24 July 2013 05:42:47PM 9 points [-]

Thus, by being vegetarian, you are saving 26 land animals a year

I don't quite understand in which meaning is the word "save" used here.

It seems to me that an equivalent statement would be "After a short period of adjustment, you being a vegetarian would result in 26 land animals not existing any more (as in, not being born)".

In the ultimate case of everyone becoming a full vegetarian, domestic animals raised for meat would become endangered species in danger of extinction. I don't think it counts as "saving".

Comment author: Swimmer963 24 July 2013 08:20:29PM *  10 points [-]

I agree with you on the technicality-it's a weird use of the word "save". Philosophically I agree with the original poster. As an individual who can suffer, I would prefer to not exist (edit: not have existed in the first place) than to live my life in a factory farm.

Comment author: Lumifer 24 July 2013 08:45:37PM -1 points [-]

As an individual who can suffer, I would prefer to not exist than to live my life in a factory farm.

Are you willing to make that choice for others?

If you see a creature living in a factory farm and have an opportunity to save it from the rest of its existence, will you kill it?

Comment author: Swimmer963 24 July 2013 08:54:05PM 5 points [-]

will you kill it?

Whoa. I didn't say that if I was living in factory farm, I would prefer to be killed. I might, and I might seek suicide, but that's a hard choice, because the will-to-live-above-all-else exists and is quite strong (for good evolutionary reasons). Also, approaching death is scary = suffering. So no, I wouldn't make that choice for another person, if I couldn't communicate with them and ask. If I could ask them, I'm not sure.

(This is a situation I've imagined myself in, i.e. if I have a patient someday who is able to convince me that they have made a rational decision that they want to commit assisted suicide. I can't model myself well enough to know what I'd do in that situation either.)

An individual that doesn't exist in the first place, i.e. because of better birth control or because fewer animals are farmed for food, doesn't exist to have to make a choice; at least that's how I see it. I could conceive of people thinking they're philosophically the same situation, but I strongly think that they aren't.

Comment author: Lumifer 24 July 2013 09:06:46PM *  -1 points [-]

I didn't say that if I was living in factory farm, I would prefer to be killed.

To quote you to you, "I would prefer to not exist than to live my life in a factory farm."

That's a pretty unambiguous statement. Maybe you want to modify it?

EDIT: Ah, I see you modified it. But that's not really a choice: the past is fixed. It's only an expression of a wish that the past were different. And, of course, it it were realized there would be no you to make the choice...

Comment author: Nisan 26 July 2013 02:45:20AM 3 points [-]

An agent can have a preference to never have existed, operationalized as a tendency to act in such a way that agents that act that way are less likely to come into existence; e.g., if agent A creates agent B because A believes B will do X, and if B does not want to have existed, then B could refrain from doing X for that reason.

Comment author: Swimmer963 24 July 2013 09:10:04PM *  2 points [-]

I went back and edited it. I personally thought it was ambiguous tending in the direction of not exist=never have existed in the first place, as opposed to 'stop existing'. Illusion of transparency, etc.

Comment author: DanielLC 26 July 2013 04:03:51AM 2 points [-]

Are you willing to make that choice for others?

As opposed to what? I can't not make a choice. I can either buy meat, and choose for them to live a painful existence, or not buy meat, and choose for them not to. It's not as if I can offer them the opportunity to go back in time and kill their own grandfathers and make the choice for themselves.

Comment author: Lumifer 26 July 2013 04:10:22AM *  -1 points [-]

A simple example of making a choice for others is making meat consumption illegal.

However this particular question was based on the Swimmer's question before editing which I understood as preferring suicide to living in a factory farm. If so, making a choice for other implies killing the other (animal) so that it does not continue to suffer on the farm.

Comment author: DanielLC 26 July 2013 05:31:12AM 2 points [-]

I'm fine with euthanasia. I don't think failing to eat meat causes it, though.

Comment author: Lukas_Gloor 24 July 2013 05:52:16PM 3 points [-]

I think Peter is concerned about individual animals and not about the abstract/semantic fence we draw about some of them, labelling it their "species". But you're right to point out that the word "save" is used in a very unusual way. If we're talking about factory farmed animals, abstaining from consumption prevents the existence of individual beings that live short and miserable lives with slaughter at the end. Whether we call this "saving" or not, I regard it as something I want to be done more often in the world.

Comment author: peter_hurford 24 July 2013 09:16:49PM 3 points [-]

"Save" as in "saved" from a life of suffering.

Comment author: MugaSofer 29 July 2013 07:26:14AM -1 points [-]

Well, "not existing anymore" sounds more like they existed and you got rid of them (i.e. mercy killing) rather than prevented them being created.

I am honestly unsure if it's worth retaining intended-for-factory-farming breeds; I would imagine, in any case, that tame "farm animals" would remain extant in zoos, though.