thomblake comments on Bayesian Judo - Less Wrong
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
Comments (100)
If I were the host I would not like it if one of my guests tried to end a conversation with "We'll have to agree to disagree" and the other guest continued with "No, we can't, actually. There's a theorem of rationality called Aumann's Agreement Theorem which shows that no two rationalists can agree to disagree." In my book this is obnoxious behavior.
Having fun at someone else's expense is one thing, but holding it up in an early core sequences post as a good thing to do is another. Given that we direct new Less Wrong readers to the core sequence posts, I think they indicate what the spirit of the community is about. And I don't like seeing the community branded as being about how to show off or how to embarrass people who aren't as rational as you.
What gave me an icky feeling about this conversation is that Eliezer didn't seem to really be aiming to bring the man round to what he saw as a more accurate viewpoint. If you've read Eliezer being persuasive, you'll know that this was not it. He seemed more interested in proving that the man's statement was wrong. It's a good thing to learn to lose graciously when they're wrong, and learn from the experience. But that's not something you can force someone to learn from the outside. I don't think the other man walked away from this experience improved, and I don't think that was Eliezer's goal.
I, like you, love a good argument with someone who also enjoys it. But to continue arguing with someone who's not enjoying it feels sadistic to me.
If I were in this conversation, I would try to frame it as a mutual exploration rather than a mission to discover which of us was wrong. At the point where the other tried to shut down the conversation, I might say, "Wait, I think we were getting to something interesting, and I want to understand what you meant when you said..." Then proceed to poke holes, but in a curious rather than professorial way.
Interesting. Do we have any good information on the attributes of discussions or debates that are the most likely to educate the other person when they disagree? In hindsight this would be a large shortcoming of mine, having debated for years now but never invested much in trying to optimize my approach with people.
Something I've noticed: when someone takes the "conquer the debate" adversarial approach, a typical-minded audience appears more likely to be interested and side with the "winner" than if the person takes a much more reserved and cooperative approach despite having just as supported arguments. Maybe the first works well for typical audiences and the second for above-typical ones? Or maybe it doesn't matter if we can foster the second in "typical" minds. Given my uncertainty it seems highly unlikely that my approach with people is optimal.
Do you have any tips for someone interested in making a mental habit out of cooperative discussion as opposed to being adversarial? I find it very difficult, I'm an aggressive and vigorous person. Maybe if I could see a video of someone using the better approach so I can try to emulate them.
I hope you've noticed you changed the subject here. In the first paragraph you're trying to persuade the person with whom you are conversing; in the second paragraph you're trying to convince an audience. They might well require entirely different methods.
You're right, I see now that the effect on audiences does not relate much to the one-on-one, so I should have kept a clear distinction. Thank you for pointing this out.
I believe this obvious mistake shows that I shouldn't comment on the sequences as I work my way through them, but rather it is better if I only start commenting after I have become familiar with them all. I am not ready yet to make comments that are relevant and coherent, and the very last thing I want to do is pollute the comment section. I am so glad about the opportunity for growth this site has, thanks very much to all.
Meh. Comments on old sequence posts don't add much noise, as long as the comment threads don't explode.