satt comments on Bayesian Judo - Less Wrong

71 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 31 July 2007 05:53AM

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Comment author: juliawise 13 February 2012 02:50:16AM *  21 points [-]

If I were the host I would not like it if one of my guests tried to end a conversation with "We'll have to agree to disagree" and the other guest continued with "No, we can't, actually. There's a theorem of rationality called Aumann's Agreement Theorem which shows that no two rationalists can agree to disagree." In my book this is obnoxious behavior.

Having fun at someone else's expense is one thing, but holding it up in an early core sequences post as a good thing to do is another. Given that we direct new Less Wrong readers to the core sequence posts, I think they indicate what the spirit of the community is about. And I don't like seeing the community branded as being about how to show off or how to embarrass people who aren't as rational as you.

What gave me an icky feeling about this conversation is that Eliezer didn't seem to really be aiming to bring the man round to what he saw as a more accurate viewpoint. If you've read Eliezer being persuasive, you'll know that this was not it. He seemed more interested in proving that the man's statement was wrong. It's a good thing to learn to lose graciously when they're wrong, and learn from the experience. But that's not something you can force someone to learn from the outside. I don't think the other man walked away from this experience improved, and I don't think that was Eliezer's goal.

I, like you, love a good argument with someone who also enjoys it. But to continue arguing with someone who's not enjoying it feels sadistic to me.

If I were in this conversation, I would try to frame it as a mutual exploration rather than a mission to discover which of us was wrong. At the point where the other tried to shut down the conversation, I might say, "Wait, I think we were getting to something interesting, and I want to understand what you meant when you said..." Then proceed to poke holes, but in a curious rather than professorial way.

Comment author: satt 14 February 2012 01:01:41AM 10 points [-]

If I were the host I would not like it if one of my guests tried to end a conversation with "We'll have to agree to disagree" and the other guest continued with "No, we can't, actually. There's a theorem of rationality called Aumann's Agreement Theorem which shows that no two rationalists can agree to disagree." In my book this is obnoxious behavior.

I'd find it especially obnoxious because Aumann's agreement theorem looks to me like one of those theorems that just doesn't do what people want it to do, and so ends up as a rhetorical cudgel rather than a relevant argument with practical import.

Comment author: MarkusRamikin 28 February 2012 02:33:49PM *  8 points [-]

Agreed. If this was Judo, it wasn't a clean point. EY's opponent simply didn't know that the move used on him was against the sport's rules, and failed to cry foul.

Storytelling-wise, EY getting away with that felt like a surprising ending, like a minor villain not getting his comeuppance.