pnrjulius comments on Belief as Attire - Less Wrong

40 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 02 August 2007 05:13PM

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Comment author: Silas 02 August 2007 06:45:02PM 6 points [-]

I thought this site would be the last place I'd see criticism of the "suicide bomber as cowardly" notion. Under some definitions, sure, doing something you expect to result in your death, in pursuit of a higher goal, necessarily counts as courage. However, it would be justifiable to say they are intellectually cowardly. That is, rather than advance their ideas through persuasion, and suffer the risk that they may be proven wrong and have to update their worldview; rather than face a world where their worldview is losing, they "abandoned" the world and killed a lot of their intellectual adversaries.

It is an escape. There is, after all, no "refutation" for "I'm right because I'm blowing up myself and you".

It's for the same reason one might apply the "coward" label to a divorced, jealous husband, who tries to "get back" at his ex-wife by killing her or their child. He, too, exposes himself to immense risk (incarceration, or if they defend themselves). He too, is pursuing a broader goal. Yet in that case, my calling him a coward is not an artifact of my disagreement with his claim that he has legitimate grievances -- in fact, I might very well be on his side (i.e., that the courts did not properly adjudicate his claim).

So yes, it might be the "American" thing to say terrorists are cowardly -- but that doesn't make the claimant biased or wrong.

Comment author: pnrjulius 14 April 2012 09:08:43PM 3 points [-]

I think actually you're a bit confused about the difference between instrumental virtues, like courage, and inherent virtues, like benevolence. (Which list "rationality" goes on is actually a tricky one for me. In a certain sense, Stalin seems terrifyingly rational.)

I guess we could talk about "intellectual courage" versus "physical courage" or something like that, and your argument is that these men were not intellectually courageous. But usually when people say "courage" simpliciter, they mean a willingness to act in spite of a high risk of pain and death. And this the hijackers definitely had!

Indeed, there's something truly terrifying about the Al Qaeda hijackers: They were mostly right about their moral values. They were altruistic, courageous, devoted to duty. It's only this very small deviation---"maximize deference to Islam" instead of "maximize human happiness"---that made them do such terrible things.

This also meshes with what we know about the Milgram and Zimbardo experiments; quite ordinary people, if convinced that they are acting toward a higher moral purpose, will often do horrific things. The average Nazi was not a psychopath, not a madman; he believed that what he was doing was right. And this should be the most chilling fact of all.

Comment author: Rinon 09 July 2012 02:05:32PM 1 point [-]

I suspect that the Muslim hijackers, in a strange way, thought they were maximizing human happiness by removing Americans from the world.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 09 July 2012 05:08:29PM 2 points [-]

I think it more likely they thought they were doing the will of Allah. Happiness? Happiness is for pigs.

Comment author: wedrifid 10 July 2012 12:50:48AM 2 points [-]

I think it more likely they thought they were doing the will of Allah. Happiness? Happiness is for pigs.

Well that explains the no bacon and pork rule.