Eliezer_Yudkowsky comments on Religion's Claim to be Non-Disprovable - Less Wrong

124 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 04 August 2007 03:21AM

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Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 04 August 2007 04:43:56AM 65 points [-]

1) Because they'll say with their lips, "Oh, well, I just want the true essence" and then go on denying homosexuals the right to marry because it's the word of God.

2) What's left, exactly?

3) Nazism would have been unexceptional if it had been an ancient religion instead of a modern government. Why can't modern Nazis disavow ancient Nazi practice in favor of some true essence that makes sense in modern terms?

4) Why not start your search for the true essence in Lord of the Rings, which dominates the Bible both ethically and aesthetically? Or Harry Potter? Or Oh My Goddess?

And above all,

5) Because it's a fantastically elaborate way of refusing to admit you were wrong.

Comment author: Will_Newsome 12 August 2010 04:10:30AM *  53 points [-]

4) Why not start your search for the true essence in [....] Harry Potter?

Hm...

Comment author: AlexM 16 July 2011 08:12:20PM *  15 points [-]

Why can't modern Nazis disavow ancient Nazi practice in favor of some true essence that makes sense in modern terms?

One can argue that holocaust denial is an attempt to bring nazism closer to modern ethical values. Real, authentic Nazis were proud of their achievement and would be outraged by thought that their successors would call them a lie.

Why not start your search for the true essence in Lord of the Rings

Some people do :-P

Comment author: Document 25 August 2013 04:07:35PM *  1 point [-]

Real, authentic Nazis

It sounds like you're using the word "Nazi" differently.

Comment author: DanielLC 09 October 2014 02:46:14AM 4 points [-]

Real, authentic Nazis were also Holocaust deniers. It wasn't public knowledge.

Comment author: Mader_Levap 18 September 2015 11:37:47AM -1 points [-]

Real, authentic Nazis were proud of their achievement

Not publicly. Holocaust denial exists since it (mass murdering of certain groups of humans) make them look bad. Of course, it is Insane Troll Logic, but I do not think anyone expects sane logic from Nazis.

Comment author: TraderJoe 30 April 2012 11:41:24AM *  0 points [-]

Why not start your search for the true essence in Lord of the Rings, which dominates the Bible both ethically and aesthetically? Or Harry Potter? Or Oh My Goddess?

Because we have Atlas Shrugged :)

Comment author: Odinn 06 March 2013 08:13:57AM 0 points [-]

I think the intended message is we should get nervous about applying an Absolute, Literal lens to any literature, especially if we get this Wonderful, Amazing, Good feeling from doing so.

Comment author: Document 25 August 2013 04:08:24PM 0 points [-]

Eliezer's intended message or TraderJoe's?

Comment author: Ebthgidr 31 December 2013 05:49:09PM -1 points [-]

For number 3, I realize the implied point, and I assume that there is more to this argument, but that sentence was one big strawman. Also, I would respond by asking why someone following the 'true essence' but confirming to modern societal/ethical norms is any worse than someone who is following said norms for a different reason. For #4, those novels don't explicitly provide ethical direction-one can use a system of ethical precepts without it being absolute and unchangeable.

Comment author: waveman 03 July 2016 01:19:42AM 0 points [-]

3) Nazism would have been unexceptional if it had been an ancient religion instead of a modern government. Why can't modern Nazis disavow ancient Nazi practice in favor of some true essence that makes sense in modern terms?

Just highlighting this point.

Comment author: Jiro 03 July 2016 03:24:27PM *  1 point [-]

Why can't they? Well, see this old post.

Comment author: jkadlubo 23 July 2016 08:26:58AM *  1 point [-]

Room full of first year pedagogy students, lecturer puts a claim "marxism is not the philosophy of Marx." He explains how marxists distorted original Marx' thought and how the original claims are so great and describe the world and how they should be followed.

If I was generous, I would say he wanted the students to argue, he wanted them to think critically and disprove his weak argument, but he had experience with students and those were 18-year-olds, who would always try to shut down my questions for explanations "because we want to have this lecture finished". The way it worked, for next two weeks all girls in my group (exept for one other older student) were avid, bona fide marxists. And likely spread this ideology to their families.

3 is happening in real life.