PhilGoetz comments on Humans are utility monsters - Less Wrong

67 Post author: PhilGoetz 16 August 2013 09:05PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (213)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: metastable 18 August 2013 06:58:34PM 2 points [-]

It's people who live in cities who join PETA.

The developed world is thoroughly urbanized. Des Moines is as far from animals as Manhattan. I think what you mean is that a certain politique ascendant on both coasts is much more likely to purchase animal rights as an expansion pack. Which is not to pre-judge the add-on, but to say it has very little to do with the size of your skyscrapers.

That said, I'm not disputing at all that modern agribusiness commodifies animals and that many of today's farmers and ranchers are pretty insulated from the things they eat.

There are many accounts of prayers to animals. One of the best-attested is of the Ainu prayers to the bears they worship (and kill.)

I'm not aware of any Western religion that says cruelty to animals is a sin

Well, that does exclude Hinduism, Jainism, and Buddhism, which famously do have animal ethics. But even if we're just talking the western religions, then yeah, they do, too.

Without getting into a nasty debate involving proof-texting and what Atheists say the Bible says versus what Theists say the Bible says: if you go ask a few questions in the pertinent parts of Stack Exchange of Muslim, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, and Orthodox Jewish thinkers, I guarantee they will answer back that wanton cruelty to animals is wrong. And the same would be true if you started reading random imams, theologians, patriarchs, and pastors.

Individual interpretations, maybe

Unfortunately, there is no possible answer to this.

The Anglican Church was fine with bear-baiting. I don't think the Catholic Church complained about vivisection.

While the first and loudest opposition to cock-fighting and bear-baiting came from Puritans and Methodists, outside the Church of England's mainstream, these people were indisputably Anglicans at the beginning. And a voice of conscience from the margins of the culture is very common, and usually just means that the center of the culture has been captured by self-interest.

Catholics leaders were present at the beginning of the anti-vivisection movement.

it's certainly true that tribal cultures gave zero or negative weight to the well-being of competing tribes.

If this were true, tribes would be in constant total war, which is actually a foreign concept to most tribal societies. Read Napoleon Chagnon again. They kill out of self-interest, and out of revenge, but it's not constant and it's not something they feel awesome about.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 19 August 2013 11:17:27PM *  4 points [-]

They kill out of self-interest, and out of revenge, but it's not constant and it's not something they feel awesome about.

Most Native American cultures felt awesome about killing enemies in battle. I don't know if it's universal, but it was very common for warriors to be highly-respected in tribal cultures, in proportion to how many people they'd killed.

I don't think you can assert that it's not constant, either. Look at the conflict between Hopi & Navajo, Cree & Blackfoot. Similar to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, and I'd call that constant.

Modern all-out, extended-duration war is a foreign concept to such groups, but "this tribe is our enemy and we will kill any of them found unprotected" and "let us all get together and annihilate this troublesome neighbor village and take their women" is not.

Comment author: metastable 20 August 2013 12:00:44AM 3 points [-]

Most Native American cultures felt awesome about killing enemies in battle.

Weren't you just saying there's a lot of mythologizing of the NA past?

Did you know there are specific Navajo rituals designed to cleanse warriors returning from war before they re-enter the community, to prevent their violence from infecting the community? And that these rituals have counterparts in cultures around the world, and are of interest to modern trauma researchers?

It is helpful to separate desirable status as a successful warrior from desire for war. It is very common for very successful warriors to prefer peace, in tribal societies as in modern. That's not to say young guys don't want to make their bones and old guys don't see the need to take care of business: it's to say that only a totally deranged person kills without any barriers, and very few people are totally deranged.

It's interesting that you adduce the Palestinian/Israeli conflict in this context. I am very certain that the majority of Israelis and Palestinians are capable of empathy for each other. This doesn't mean they wouldn't shell each other or commit atrocities. But you're arguing a hard line: that tribes attach "zero or negative" utility to each other's continued existence.

Comment author: Lumifer 20 August 2013 12:51:20AM *  3 points [-]

tribes attach "zero or negative" utility to each other's continued existence.

This needs modifiers: it looks to me that with "always" added this is wrong, but with "sometimes" added this is correct.