ikrase comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 27, chapter 98 - Less Wrong

2 Post author: Vaniver 28 August 2013 07:29PM

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Comment author: ikrase 30 August 2013 04:04:09PM 1 point [-]

Also because these children have the initiative and at least three of them are nobles.

Comment author: linkhyrule5 30 August 2013 05:51:08PM 6 points [-]

This is the big one. Child or not, if you're noble you're a Big Deal, so long as you have the backing of the rest of your family.

Comment author: Velorien 02 September 2013 12:58:27PM *  7 points [-]

Seconded. It is repeatedly implied in MoR that a noble child is, by default, a legitimate representative of their family, and anything that they do, or is done to them, is as if it was done by/to the family. For example, noble Slytherins get private chambers, even though they've done nothing to earn them within the context of the school's own regulations. Pretty much everything Draco does is considered to be a reflection on the House of Malfoy. It is considered natural for prepubescent children to know spells and rules of challenge designed for formal duels between noble houses.

In general, Rowling's universe assigns improbable values of agency and responsibility to children (socially speaking), and Eliezer only enhances this trend. Let's not forget that the Wizengamot doesn't blink an eyelid at sentencing a twelve-year old girl to die of slow torture for her crimes, or at a twelve-year old boy spontaneously giving away one of Britain's bigger fortunes to settle a blood debt. Death is an acceptable risk in exchange for having your child study at a wizarding school, with Hogwarts's no-deaths-for-fifty-years being seen as an amazing exception rather than a reasonable standard. Powerful magics are taught to children as soon as they are physically and mentally capable of casting them, with no reference to issues of maturity.

Comment author: gattsuru 06 September 2013 03:25:19AM 4 points [-]

This may reflect the relatively slower pace of cultural development inside the Wizarding World : it's actually a rather recent change for young children to be treated as Western Civilization treats them. There are still people alive today who remember being allowing to carry rifles to school, as long as they kept the guns in their lockers between classes.

Comment author: Sheaman3773 05 September 2013 02:33:58AM 1 point [-]

Erm, to be fair, they most certainly do blink an eye:

the roar of simultaneous gasps from the Wizengamot.

Comment author: Velorien 05 September 2013 12:51:55PM 1 point [-]

There are many plausible explanations for that other than Harry's age, though. I suspect they'd have reacted the same way were he an adult giving a way his entire fortune in one fell swoop to save a Muggleborn attempted murderer.

Comment author: Sheaman3773 05 September 2013 10:50:10PM 1 point [-]

Freely acknowledged. I was just pointing out that they didn't react with aplomb.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 06 September 2013 02:36:36AM -1 points [-]

Seconded. It is repeatedly implied in MoR that a noble child is, by default, a legitimate representative of their family, and anything that they do, or is done to them, is as if it was done by/to the family. For example, noble Slytherins get private chambers, even though they've done nothing to earn them within the context of the school's own regulations.

I don't see how that follows from your example.

Comment author: Velorien 06 September 2013 01:41:58PM 1 point [-]

Noble Slytherins are accorded privileges based on their noble status, thus being treated as representatives of their noble families, rather than just children who happen to have important parents and have to earn things on their own merit (as non-noble children would).

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 08 September 2013 06:16:09AM 0 points [-]

You seem to be confusing two things.

1) Children inheriting some of their parents' status.

2) Children being able to speak on behalf of their house.

Comment author: Velorien 08 September 2013 12:09:42PM 1 point [-]

I think you are bringing "parents" into this unnecessarily. If there were Gryffindor noble chambers, I doubt anyone would deny one to Harry on the grounds that he was an orphan. Conversely, if a hypothetical Malfoy of lesser parentage (a cousin X removed, perhaps) were to enter Hogwarts, I doubt they would be denied noble chambers because their parents were low down within the Malfoy hierarchy. For as long as they bore the Malfoy name, any discourtesy to them would be considered an insult to the House of Malfoy.

It's not about inheriting parents' status, it's about membership of a noble house. Membership of a noble house confers the right to noble chambers where they exist. It confers a bunch of legal rights, as we saw with the Wizengamot, which again are not restricted to adults. It apparently also confers the right to speak on behalf of the house. Most children do not do so, probably because they have no reason to, and are aware that they will get into terrible trouble if they end up saying anything that embarrasses their house. On the other hand, someone like Draco, who has been groomed for this sort of thing extensively, never for a moment hints that his words don't carry the full authority of his house (and is ever mindful of what his father will think of his words and actions as a result).

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 12 September 2013 04:51:49AM -1 points [-]

I think you are bringing "parents" into this unnecessarily. If there were Gryffindor noble chambers, I doubt anyone would deny one to Harry on the grounds that he was an orphan.

He's still inheriting their status. The fact that they're dead is immaterial.

Conversely, if a hypothetical Malfoy of lesser parentage (a cousin X removed, perhaps) were to enter Hogwarts, I doubt they would be denied noble chambers because their parents were low down within the Malfoy hierarchy.

Being a Malfoy is apparently higher status than being a commoner.

It's not about inheriting parents' status, it's about membership of a noble house. Membership of a noble house confers the right to noble chambers where they exist. It confers a bunch of legal rights, as we saw with the Wizengamot, which again are not restricted to adults. It apparently also confers the right to speak on behalf of the house.

One of these things is not like the others. Being a US citizen also confers a lot of rights. That doesn't mean you have the right to negotiate treaties on behalf of the US.