Douglas_Reay comments on The Up-Goer Five Game: Explaining hard ideas with simple words - Less Wrong

29 Post author: RobbBB 05 September 2013 05:54AM

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Comment author: Douglas_Reay 05 September 2013 08:10:40AM 2 points [-]

Utilitarianism : Care the same whether everyone is happy; if they live near or if they live far, if you like them or if you not like them; everyone.

Comment author: gjm 05 September 2013 03:39:40PM 8 points [-]

I don't think either this, or anything else in this subthread, captures it. Let me have a go.

People like some things and not others. For each person, we can give a number to each thing that says how much they like it or don't. Suppose you must do one of two things. For each, look at how the world will be if you do it -- every thing in the world -- and all the people in the world, and add up all those numbers saying whether they like the things or not. Then do the thing that gives the biggest total.

Those numbers should be such that if one of two things will happen, each as often as the other, the number for this is half way between the numbers for those two things. And they should be such that each person will always do what makes their numbers biggest. And if two people care the same about a thing, they should give it the same number. We can't really make all those things true, but we do the best we can.

(What if you must do one of two things, and one makes there be more people, or fewer people, or other people? That is hard and I will not try to say what to do then.)

It's not perfect but I think it captures the key points: equal weights for all, consider all people, add up utilities, utilities should correspond to people's preferences. And it owns up to some of the difficulties that I can't solve in upgoer5 language because I can't solve them at all.

Comment author: Nornagest 05 September 2013 09:41:32AM *  2 points [-]

Hmm. That's part of it, but it doesn't seem to capture the full scope of the philosophy; you seem to be emphasizing its egalitarian aspects more than the aggregation algorithm, and I think the latter's really the core of it. Here's my stab at preference utilitarianism:

An act is good if it helps people do what they want and get what they need. It's bad if it makes people do things they don't want, or if it keeps them from getting what they need. If it gives them something they want but also makes them do something they don't want just as much, it isn't good or bad.

There are no right or wrong things to want, just right or wrong things to do. Also, it doesn't matter who the people are, or even if you know about them. What matters is what happens, not what you wanted to happen.

Comment author: twanvl 05 September 2013 08:23:33AM 1 point [-]

That is not what utilitarianism means. It means doing something is good if what happens is good, and doing something is bad if what happens is bad. It doesn't say which things are good and bad.

Comment author: CronoDAS 05 September 2013 08:41:32AM 5 points [-]

[this post is not in Up-Goer-5-ese]

The name for the type of moral theory in which

doing something is good if what happens is good, and doing something is bad if what happens is bad

is "consequentialism." Utilitarianism is a kind of consequentialism.

Comment author: twanvl 05 September 2013 08:52:10AM 3 points [-]

You are right, I was getting confused by the name. And the wikipedia article is pretty bad in that it doesn't give a proper concise definition, at least none that I can find. SEP is better.

It still looks like you need some consequentialism in the explanation, though.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 05 September 2013 05:52:15PM *  4 points [-]

I have yet to find a topic, such that, if both Wikipedia and SEP have an article about it, the Wikipedia version is better.

Comment author: gjm 06 September 2013 11:48:38AM -1 points [-]

Any topic for which Wikipedia and SEP don't both have articles suffices :-). I think you mean: "I have yet to find a topic on which both Wikipedia and SEP have articles, and for which the Wikipedia article is better." With which I strongly agree. SEP is really excellent.

Comment author: jkaufman 06 September 2013 05:17:15PM 1 point [-]

You're not using English "if".

Comment author: gjm 06 September 2013 10:39:29PM -1 points [-]

I'm using one variety of "if", used in some particular contexts when writing in English. I was doing so only for amusement -- of course I don't imagine that anyone has trouble understanding Jayson_Virissimo's meaning -- and from the downvotes it looks as if most readers found it less amusing than I hoped. Can't win 'em all.

But it's no more "not English" than many uses of, e.g., the following words on LW: "friendly", "taboo", "simple", "agency", "green". ("Friendly" as in "Friendly AI", which means something much more specific than ordinary-English "friendly"; "taboo" as in the technique of explaining a term without using that term or other closely-related ones; "simple" in the sense of Kolmogorov complexity, according to which e.g. a "many-worlds" universe is simpler than a collapsing-wave-function one despite being in some sense much bigger and fuller of strange things; "agency" meaning the quality of acting on one's own initiative even when there are daunting obstacles; "green" as the conventional name for a political/tribal group, typically opposed to "blue".)