wedrifid comments on Notes on Brainwashing & 'Cults' - Less Wrong

35 Post author: gwern 13 September 2013 08:49PM

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Comment author: wedrifid 15 September 2013 01:33:36PM * 3 points [-]

You do realize that a lot of cults tend to classify normal family reactions, e.g., attempting to get the person out of the cult, as emotional abuse.

I don't care and I'm somewhat outraged at this distortion of reasoning. It is so obviously bad and yet remains common and is all too seldom refuted. Emotional abuse is a sufficiently well defined thing. It is an undesirable thing. Various strategies for dealing with it are possible. In severe cases and in relationships where the gains do not offset the damage then severing ties is an appropriate strategy to consider. This doesn't stop being the case if someone else also misuses the phrase 'emotional abuse'.

Enduring emotional abuse rather than severing ties with the abuser because sometimes cultists sever ties while using that phrase is idiotic. Calling people 'creepy' for advocating sane, mainstream interpersonal strategies is absurd and evil.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 18 September 2013 05:44:00AM * 4 points [-]

I don't care and I'm somewhat outraged at this distortion of reasoning. It is so obviously bad and yet remains common and is all too seldom refuted.

Sorry, exactly what is it that you're outraged about? Eugene seemed to merely be pointing out that people inside particular social groups might see things differently than people outside them, with the outsiders being creeped out and insiders not being that. More specifically, that things that we deem okay might come off as creepy to outsiders. That seems correct to me.

Comment author: wedrifid 18 September 2013 06:44:59AM 0 points [-]

Sorry, exactly what is it that you're outraged about?

As a general policy:

All cases where non-sequitur but technically true claims are made where the actual implied rhetorical meaning is fallacious. Human social instincts are such that most otherwise intelligent humans seem to be particularly vulnerable to this form of persuasion.
All arguments or insinuations of the form "Hitler, Osama Bin Laden and/or cultists do <something superficially similar to X>. Therefore, if you say that <X> is ok then you are Bad."
Additional outrage, disdain or contempt applies when:
- The non-sequitur's are, through either high social skill or (as in this case) plain luck, well calibrated to persuade the audience despite being bullshit.
- Actual negative consequences can be expected to result from the epistemic damage perpetrated.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 20 September 2013 11:38:45AM * 5 points [-]

Thanks, that sounds reasonable. I didn't interpret Eugene's comments as being guilty of any of those, though.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 19 September 2013 07:28:43AM -1 points [-]

All cases where non-sequitur but technically true claims are made where the actual implied rhetorical meaning is fallacious. Human social instincts are such that most otherwise intelligent humans seem to be particularly vulnerable to this form of persuasion.

In my experience nearly all accusations that someone is being "emotionally abusive" are of this type.

Comment author: wedrifid 19 September 2013 10:52:03AM * 2 points [-]

In my experience nearly all accusations that someone is being "emotionally abusive" are of this type.

If that is true then you are fortunate to have lived such a sheltered existence. If it is not true (and to some extent even if it is) then I expect being exposed to this kind of denial and accusation of dishonesty to be rather damaging to those who are actual victims of the phenonemon you claim is 'nearly all' fallacious accusation.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 19 September 2013 08:31:58PM -1 points [-]

If that is true then you are fortunate to have lived such a sheltered existence.

I could say the same thing about you if you've never encountered people willing to make false accusations of abuse (frequently on behalf of children) with the force of the law, or at least child services behind them.

If it is not true (and to some extent even if it is) then I expect being exposed to this kind of denial and accusation of dishonesty to be rather damaging to those who are actual victims of the phenonemon you claim is 'nearly all' fallacious accusation.

This is as good a summery of the "how dare you urge restraint" position as any I've heard.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 15 September 2013 03:29:46PM 6 points [-]

Emotional abuse is a sufficiently well defined thing. It is an undesirable thing.

So could you provide a definition. The article you linked to begins by saying:

As of 1996, There were "no consensus views about the definition of emotional abuse."

And then proceeds to list three categories that are sufficiently vague to include a lot of legitimate behavior.

Enduring emotional abuse rather than severing ties with the abuser because sometimes cultists sever ties while using that phrase is idiotic.

You don't seem to be getting the concept of "outside view". Think about it this way: as the example of cults shows, humans have a bias that makes them interpret Bob attempting to persuade Alice away from one's meme set as emotional abuse. Consider the possibility that you're also suffering from this bias.

Comment author: wedrifid comment score below threshold [+] (4 children)

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 16 September 2013 07:10:38AM * 0 points [-]

For now I will say this is an example of emotional abuse which would in most situations call for the severing of ties.

I agree gaslighting is bad. Ironically, most of the examples that come to mind (and the only example of attempted gaslighting happening to some I know) involve attempting to plant false memories that someone else was emotionally (and possibly also physically) abusing them.

Don't be absurd. Conversation over. Be advised that future comments of your on any of the subjects of emotional abuse, cults or creepiness will be voted on without reply unless I perceive them to be a danger to others. The reasoning you are using is both non-sequitur and toxic. I don't have the patience for it.

What I suspect is happening is you perceive evil "emotional abuse" as having occured and your reaction is "how dare eugine urge restraint."

I care about gaslighting, various forms of emotional blackmail and verbal abuse. Again, the fact that the phrase "emotional abuse" can be misused by someone in a cult does not make refusal to respond to actual emotional abuse appropriate or sane.

Yes, but is "actual emotional abuse" (to the extent it's an objective concept) occurring. In particular do you have any evidence that gaslighting (the only specific example you gave) occurred in any of the examples under discussion. Setrainly none of the things diego mentioned even suggest gaslighting was occurring.

Comment author: wedrifid 16 September 2013 08:24:50AM * 1 point [-]

What I suspect is happening is you perceive evil "emotional abuse" as having occured and your reaction is "how dare eugine urge restraint."

This is false. I object to the reasoning used in this conversation for the previously expressed reasons. I consider it disingenuous, with the inevitable caveat that I cannot reliably distinguish between disengenuity and sincere inability to think in a manner which I consider coherent. That is all.

For better or worse I viscerally experience more disgust when observing clever use of non-sequitur retorts than I experience at descriptions of the hypothetical abusive behaviours. Bullshit is my enemy. "Emotional abuse" is a mere abstract evil.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 19 September 2013 07:31:31AM -1 points [-]

Your first response to my comment was not to declare it "bullshit" but to declare it "evil". Furthermore, all your reasons boil down to "How dare you invoke the outside view when we all know Evil Things(tm) are happening". And you don't bother to engage with any of the arguments I provided.

Comment author: wedrifid 19 September 2013 11:23:19AM * -2 points [-]

Your first response to my comment was not to declare it "bullshit" but to declare it "evil".

This accusation seems to be actively relying on the assumption that readers will not check the context to verify accuracy. The first two sentences in the reply in question seem to be quite clearly declaring 'bullshit'. In particular note the phrases "distortion of reasoning", "so obviously bad and yet remains common" and "all too seldom refuted". I quite frequently reference on bullshit when describing that pattern of behaviour but it doesn't seem necessary to explicitly use the word 'bullshit' every single time. In fact I try to make myself use natural language descriptions like this rather than using bullshit every time because that habit would just get weird.

Furthermore, all your reasons boil down to "How dare you invoke the outside view when we all know Evil Things(tm) are happening".

This is false. Eugine_Nier has presented approximately the same straw man previously and it was false then too. I conclude that he has little interest in making his accusations match reality.

And you don't bother to engage with any of the arguments I provided.

I did engage, and that was a mistake. Like other users have mentioned in the past I now must concur that Eugine_Nier is systematically incapable of engaging in good-faith conversation. I will henceforth refrain from communicating with Eugine_Nier except when I deem it necessary to lend support to another user I perceive to be mistreated (via straw man barrages and the like). Apart from such cases I will limit myself to downvoting as appropriate then ignoring.

wedrifid comments on Notes on Brainwashing & 'Cults' - Less Wrong

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