Mestroyer comments on Rationality Quotes October 2013 - Less Wrong

7 [deleted] 05 October 2013 09:02PM

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Comment author: Mestroyer 05 October 2013 06:20:28AM 40 points [-]

The market doesn't give a shit how hard you worked. Users just want your software to do what they need, and you get a zero otherwise. That is one of the most distinctive differences between school and the real world: there is no reward for putting in a good effort. In fact, the whole concept of a "good effort" is a fake idea adults invented to encourage kids. It is not found in nature.

--Paul Graham (When I saw this quote, I thought it had to have been posted before, but googling turned up nothing.)

Comment author: CoffeeStain 08 October 2013 07:44:08AM 4 points [-]

The closest you can come to getting an actual "A for effort" is through creating cultural content, such as a Kickstarter project or starting a band. You'll get extra success when people see that you're interested in what you're doing, over and beyond as an indicator that what you'll produce is otherwise of quality. People want to be part of something that is being cared for, and in some cases would prefer it to lazily created perfection.

I'd still call it though an "A for signalling effort."

Comment author: DanielLC 05 October 2013 09:57:43PM 4 points [-]

A good effort doesn't result in valuable software, but it could result in you learning to program better, increasing your human capital.

Comment author: wiresnips 05 October 2013 10:38:09PM 15 points [-]

That's not necessarily false, but it's a dangerous thing to say to yourself. Mostly when I find myself thinking it, I've just wasted a great deal of time, and I'm trying to convince myself that it wasn't really wasted. It's easy to tell myself, hard to verify, and more pleasant than thinking my time-investment was for nothing.

Comment author: DanielLC 05 October 2013 10:51:42PM 10 points [-]

It sure seems like a step up from when your time is really wasted, and you spent it all playing on the computer.

Comment author: Armok_GoB 07 October 2013 12:39:56AM 7 points [-]

It's a continuum. I certainly wouldn't call a time when you're having fun and training your reflexes or pattern matching ability wasted. Or sleep. Or even sitting around anywhere where you can think stuff and meditate. The only wasted time is the one spent in to much pain to even think.

Comment author: Jiro 05 October 2013 05:28:22PM 8 points [-]

I disagree with this quote. In the real world, many things are't all or nothing. The equivalent of a good effort isn't not producing any software, it's producing software that's marginally worse than the best software you could produce. That software will sell marginally less well than the best software you could produce, and produce marginally less profit, but it will still sell.

Comment author: Mestroyer 05 October 2013 05:36:10PM 5 points [-]

This doesn't say software is all-or-nothing. Not producing the best software you can gets you money only if it (to some extent) still does what the customer needs. Besides misinformed customers, if it doesn't do what the customer needs, you do get nothing. If it is not-quite-perfect, it's the result that gets you your not-quite-what-it-could-have-been profit. Not the effort.

Comment author: hankx7787 27 October 2013 02:28:27PM 4 points [-]

Completely wrong.

As a software engineer at a company with way too much work to go around, I can tell you that making a "good effort" goes a long way. 90% of the time you don't have to "make it work or get a zero". As long as you are showing progress you can generally keep the client happy (or at least not firing you) as you get things done, even if you are missing deadlines. And this seems very much normal to me. I'm not sure where in the market you have to "make it work or get a zero". I'm not even convinced that exists.

Comment author: Mestroyer 27 October 2013 04:41:02PM 2 points [-]

The essay is about startups. Perhaps they are different from your company. Also, getting things done but not in time for deadlines is not the same as not getting them done but making a good effort.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 27 October 2013 08:48:59PM -1 points [-]

As long as you are showing progress you can generally keep the client happy (or at least not firing you) as you get things done,

But eventually you do have to make sure that things are done and work.

Comment author: Grant 29 November 2013 02:53:28AM 0 points [-]

The quote refers to the (end) market and users, not the internal workings of a software development firm.

Comment author: [deleted] 05 October 2013 06:39:56PM -2 points [-]

Mmm, no, whether you like it or not people who live off rent-seeking do exist.

Comment author: RolfAndreassen 06 October 2013 04:10:42AM 7 points [-]

True, but no obviously opposed to the quote. Rents are not a reward for a good effort.