Vaniver comments on Rationality Quotes October 2013 - Less Wrong

7 [deleted] 05 October 2013 09:02PM

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Comment author: Vaniver 14 October 2013 09:10:47PM 2 points [-]

The love of complexity without reductionism makes art; the love of complexity with reductionism makes science.

--E.O. Wilson

Comment author: CoffeeStain 14 October 2013 11:49:56PM *  2 points [-]

Whenever I have a philosophical conversation with an artist, invariably we end up talking about reductionism, with the artist insisting that if they give up on some irreducible notion, they feel their art will suffer. I've heard, from some of the world's best artists, notions ranging from "magic" to "perfection" to "muse" to "God."

It seems similar to the notion of free will, where the human algorithm must always insist it is capable of thinking about itself on level higher. The artist must always think of his art one level higher, and try to tap unintentional sources of inspiration. Nonreductionist views of either are confusions about how an algorithm feels on the inside.

Comment author: Ishaan 15 October 2013 12:04:16AM *  2 points [-]

I don't think that this is an artist problem- I think this is a human problem, which a few scientists and philosophers have been forced to overcome in pursuit of truth.

their art will suffer

Too many people have straw-vulcan notions of reductionism. (tvtropes warning)

Comment author: anandjeyahar 16 October 2013 09:55:11PM 0 points [-]

I've heard, from some of the world's best artists, notions ranging from "magic" to "perfection" to "muse" to "God."

Elizabeth Gilbert presents a reasonably practical justification for the use of such a concept. See [here] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86x-u-tz0MA). Warning: TED talk and generous use of "reasonable"

Comment author: mwengler 16 October 2013 12:53:36PM 1 point [-]

I don't think it is complexity that makes art. I think it is emotion/feeling. Emotion/feeling may look like complexity to the rational mind because it does arise from a complex system which can be figured out bit by bit by the rational mind. But the essence of art is not to love anything that is complex and hard for the rational mind to figure out, but rather to focus on the feelings produced, the gestalt, the irrational, emotional connections and reactions.

Comment author: Estarlio 15 October 2013 11:34:25AM 0 points [-]

What about artists who think that reducing things to their bare essentials is the essence of art? Or styles like - well, broadly speaking, anime (or caricatures in general) - that are based on the emphasis of certain basic forms? Or writers like Eric Hoffer - "Wordiness is a sickness of American writing. Too many words dilute and blur ideas. [...] If you have nothing to say and want badly to say it, then all the words in all the dictionaries will not suffice." ?

Comment author: Vaniver 15 October 2013 04:09:34PM 0 points [-]

It's worth noting that Wilson's comment is A->B, C->D, not A=B, C=D.

What about artists who think that reducing things to their bare essentials is the essence of art?

Does that sound like a love of complexity to you?

Comment author: Estarlio 16 October 2013 12:36:58PM -2 points [-]

It's worth noting that Wilson's comment is A->B, C->D, not A=B, C=D.

Yeah, I know. It's just not clear that you have to love complexity and not like reductionism to get art. It's not A <-> B.

If it's not A <-> B then it's A -> B but even that seems sketchy. Lots of people love spouting, sketching, whatever, complex nonsense without doing anything I'd describe as art.

Of course, it'd help in this situation to be able to point at art - but the whole thought seems very muddled and imprecise, and the issues seems far from the blank assertion it's presented as.

Does that sound like a love of complexity to you?

No.