Eliezer_Yudkowsky comments on The best 15 words - Less Wrong

12 Post author: apophenia 03 October 2013 09:08AM

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Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 08 October 2013 06:35:19PM 5 points [-]

I concede that a lot of contemporary discussion of John Brown is unjustifiably reverential, and I don't consider him particularly heroic.

I consider him extremely heroic. Not ultrarational, but there were people suffering in the darkness and crying out for help, a lot of people saying "Later", and John Brown saying "Fuck this, let's just do it." If there's a historical consensus that the Civil War could have been avoided, I have not encountered it; and that being so, might as well have the Civil War sooner rather than later.

Comment author: Vaniver 08 October 2013 07:16:03PM 2 points [-]

If there's a historical consensus that the Civil War could have been avoided, I have not encountered it

Here's an argument. Basically, Lincoln could have acted early to keep half of the South, and a confederacy of just seven coastal states primarily dependent on the global cotton market could have been waited out, or brought to heel quickly.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 09 October 2013 05:29:46AM *  2 points [-]

Not ultrarational, but there were people suffering in the darkness and crying out for help, a lot of people saying "Later",

To bring this to contemporary examples, do you support Operation Iraqi Freedom?

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 10 October 2013 12:26:33AM 8 points [-]

If I recall my past opinions correctly, I said at the time that while such wars were the only way to free certain countries, I did not trust the competence of the current administration to prosecute it and was strongly against the way in which it was carried out in defiance of international law.

I would say in retrospect that the resulting disaster would have been 2/3 of the way to my reasonable upper bound for disastrousness, but the full degree to which e.g. the Bush Defense department was ignoring the Bush State department was surprising and would not become known until years later. I have since adjusted my political cynicism upward, and continue to argue with various community-members about whether the US government can be expected to execute elaborate correct actions based on amazingly accurate theories about AI which they got from university professors (answer: no).

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 10 October 2013 01:23:19AM 2 points [-]

Why doesn't the same logic apply to the Civil War?

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 10 October 2013 01:59:42AM 4 points [-]

For one thing, it worked. But I wasn't there at the time, not to mention not being born at the time, so it's hard to argue about what I would have said about the Civil War.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 12 October 2013 06:14:27AM 4 points [-]

For one thing, it worked.

For certain values of "worked". Slavery was abolished, similarly Saddam is no longer in power and Iraq is certainly much closer to democracy (at least by Arab standards). Also in both cases the occupation (called "reconstruction" after the civil war) met with heavy resistance and was ultimately discontinued for political reasons. Ultimately Jim Crow was instituted. It is notable that for roughly a century afterwards the civil war was regarded as a tragic mistake.