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ChrisHallquist comments on What Can We Learn About Human Psychology from Christian Apologetics? - Less Wrong
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I'd actually be surprised if LessWrong made many deconverts (though such people would be interesting to hear from, if they exist). The Sequences take atheism and a vague respect for rationality for granted, and focus on arguing about other topics. And the Sequences have shifted my beliefs around on some of those other topics, most notably Bayesianism.
The comparison to apologetics is more apt, I think, for sites like Rational Wiki, which Konkvistador aptly described as, "what a slightly left of centre atheist needs to win an internet debate... an ammunition depot to aid in winning debates."
I deconverted in large part because of Less Wrong. Looking back at it now, I hadn't had a strong belief since I was 18 (by which I mean, if you asked most believers what the p(god) is they'd say 100% whereas I might have said 90%) but that might just be my mind going back and fixing memories so present me thinks better of past me.
I'd be happy to do an AMA (I went from Mormon to Atheist) but a couple of the main things that convinced me were:
Seeing that other apologists could make up similar arguments to make just about anything look true (for example, other religious apologists, homeopathy, anti-vaccines, etc)
Seeing the evidence for evolution and specifically, how new information supports true things. That showed me that for true things, new information doesn't need to be explained away, but actually supports the hypothesis. For example, with evolution discoveries such as carbon dating, the fossil record, and DNA all support it. Those same discoveries have to be explained away via apologetics for religions.
Bayesian thinking. I have an econ background so kind of did this informally but the emphasis from less wrong that once you see evidence against you need to actively lower your probability a bit really helped me. Before I'd done what EY pointed out where you take all of your evidence for and stacked that against this one evidence against and then when the next evidence against comes along you take all your evidence for and stack it against that one evidence, etc.
The value that I want to believe what is true. I had this before but wasn't as proactive about it.
Before I felt like my belief system was logical and fit the evidence and if someone didn't believe it was because they hadn't looked at the evidence and fairly considered it. Seeing people look at the evidence and then cogently explain why they still didn't believe gave me a "I notice I'm confused" moment.\
etc.
I see a couple things similar to this that were probably the biggest factors in my deconversion now that I look back.
Within Christianity, over a long period of time, they are so sure about so many views that end up being demonstrably wrong.
They are sure that the Earth is the center of the universe. And when that debate is finally settled, they are just as sure that evolution is false...
And then, in time, when that debate is just as settled (in the public) as heliocentrism, they'll retreat, and then dig in and try to argue for the next line of nonsense for X decades/centuries.
Something similar also occurs in all the different sects of Christianity at any given time. They are often each equally convinced of mutually exclusive claims. One sect is sure speaking in tongues is from God, one is sure it is from the Devil, one is sure it only existed -- but only in the first century, one is sure it is nonsense (but they still accept all the other magical stuff in the Bible).
The interesting observation (and the thing that helped me de-convert) is that among all these differing beliefs, Christians of all stripes from all times use basically the same apologetic tactics and seem to be each convinced that they are right because of some sophisticated-sounding hermeneutic they use to "rightly interpret the Bible".
Using the Bible, you could argue for almost any position you'd like and make it look true as long as you find a way to tie it to "Scripture".
Reminds me of a quote from an old LW post... "If you are equally good at explaining any outcome, you have zero knowledge."
I don't think it's entirely fair to blame e.g. geocentrist cosmology on Christianity qua religion. Those debates happened at a time when the Church was, or recently had been, the primary European vector of literacy and philosophy: basically the only intellectual game in town. Challenges to its natural philosophy had the character of attacks on a scientific establishment, or the closest thing available at the time, as much as a religious one. They did draw on the language and norms of religion in their responses, but you can hardly condemn a bunch of clergy for that.
Creationism's fair game, though.
raises hand
One could argue that LW just made the inevitable happen faster, though.
Connotationally about "just made the inevitable happen faster": Sometimes the timing makes a huge difference. For a man, being just a few years late may result in a marriage where "coming out" would mean losing all contact with their children. For a woman, being just a few years late may result in being married to an old polygamous guy and having no chance to get even high-school education.
All the religion needs to win is to keep you long enough so that it can keep your children, too.
Yeah, good point, agreed-- I'm possibly in the former category there, it's hard to say.
Articles like Belief in Belief and A Parable on Obsolete Ideologies were instrumental in my deconversion.
Thanks for that comment. Re-skimming those articles, those are both good examples of LW articles that don't assume atheism from the start. Which isn't true of a lot of articles on LW, but it's good to remember it's true of some of them.
I'm personally familiar with one, who I believe now posts under a different username, whose deconversion process I was witness to online, although I think the discussion transcripts are no longer hosted online.
"Is man the rational animal, or are there a lot of irrationalities in our everyday decisions, and has your belief altered since you began reading LessWrong" "Did you previously have any beliefs on QM interpretations, and have they been affected by reading LW" "Has reading LessWrong affected your levels of productivity in any way, and if so, how?"
Those are probably three more appropriate questions for LW readers, although I do expect that the last question would receive mostly 'no'. I don't think this is especially damning for LW though, because that's a quite hard task.
Man is the most rational animal, and there are a lot of irrationalities in our everyday decisions. I don't remember explicitly thinking about it, but I would guess that I'd have thought it obvious before reading LessWrong. I know I didn't have trouble understanding the reason for the title of this blog.
I was previously agnostic. Seeing Eliezer mention that MWI was true shifted my beliefs significantly towards that. Learning enough QM to understand why shifted me the rest of the way.
I don't know.