hyporational comments on How habits work and how you may control them - Less Wrong
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Read the original book. Punishment is useless, you want negative reinforcement, and yes there is a difference.
"Punishment" is something bad that happens when you do something. "Negative reinforcement" is something bad that goes away when you stop doing something.
The trick is that brains have a kind of reinforcement kluge: instead of having an "avoid this, it's painful" circuit, we are reinforced by positive changes, including the removal of a negative stimulus.
So technically, the thing about punishment is, it's not really punishment. Animals and people don't learn to stop doing something in response to punishment, they learn to do whatever makes the punishment stop the quickest. If this happens to be avoiding the thing being punished, it's purely a matter of luck. They may also learn to say, hide their behavior from whoever's punishing it, run away, etc.
So the catch to all this is that self-punishment is useless because the fastest way to stop the punishment is just to stop punishing yourself in the first place. The only consistent self-punishment people can apply is the kind they've been trained to do by someone else -- i.e., the kind that they got rewarded (or negatively reinforced) for doing.
(Well, technically I suppose you might be able to train yourself to continue punishing yourself by rewarding yourself for punishing yourself, but...)
Ok. I'm going to read the book. If I don't keep reading, I'll slap myself furiously with rubber bands.
In my experience, negative punishment works very well with children. Any takes on that?
I'm not sure whether you're joking, serious, or being sarcastic.
I don't know what you mean by "negative punishment", nor what you mean by "works very well". Works very well to accomplish what, specifically?
Just joking with good intentions.
here's a nice diagram of what I'm talking about.
Positive punishment is done with a noxious stimulus. Negative punishment is taking away a rewarding stimulus. Has worked wonders with my little brother in quenching unwanted i.e. violent, behaviour. Worked well for me too when I was a kid. Usually applied by taking away a favorite toy or activity for a while, and explaining why it's happening.
Not an expert, but I believe the distinction is that such abstract punishments as taking away toys effectively provide a motivation to change the behavior, effectively incentivizing the punished to try to change the habit. This can only work insofar as the punished is able to recognize the unwanted behavior and meaningfully control their response to it. This is inherently different from directly rewarding or punishing the behavior, and it certainly doesn't work on any animal besides humans.
I agree. This also implicates abstract punishment works differently for different developmental ages. Abstractly punishing kids too young enough to understand it is just cruel, and it's just a stupid way to punish older kids who understand it too well.
It works, but poorly.
Got a bit emotional. Sorry about that.
Thanks for letting me know.
ETA: Anyone else notice (besides wedrifid, obviously), that this thread is full of claims not backed at all, and inexplicable upvotes, to boot?