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perturbation comments on Open Thread, October 20 - 26, 2013 - Less Wrong
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Am I running on corrupted hardware or is life really this terrible? I don't think I can last another decade like this one, let alone whatever cryonically-supplied futures that would await. At this point, I think I would pay not to be frozen.
Ugh.
It sounds like you are depressed. It's probably worth considering therapy or psychiatric care - these interventions have helped me a lot. Hope things get better for you.
Depression can be irrational--chemical imbalances, not enough sunlight/exercise/etc--and can also be totally rational (life actually does suck titanium balls). Psychiatric care can help the former; the latter seems as it should be vulnerable to rationality superpowers, but either that's incorrect or I'm just not superclever enough to win. It does not help when the two coincide (sucky life situation causing serious chemical problems).
There's also the question of whether or not a terrible situation is one that makes psychiatric help readily available (I'd hope online psychiatry could help with this, but I don't really know).
Not exactly -- while depression can be caused by major life suckage, depression is not a rational response to major life suckage.
That depends. "Too depressed to do anything" is a pretty effective way out of certain unpleasant situations.
Specific example: Being in grad school caused my life to suck titanium balls, which (presumably combined with a pre-existing brain vulnerability) led me to the point where I was too depressed to do any work. Which meant I had to drop out. Which was the only way I could ever have left, as my moral system at the time did not permit giving up an endeavor simply because it was making me miserable. And, surprise, surprise, as soon as I got on the plane out of there it was like color came back into the world and life was worth living again.
Trying to reason your way out of mental illness is like trying to pull yourself out of quicksand by yanking on your hair.
Depression screws with your thoughts and perceptions in incredibly profound ways, including your ability to make predictions about the future, and is absolutely a tamp on rational thought. That's true whether it is caused by another mental illness or a traumatic event in your life; it's just as "chemical" and just as difficult to escape either way. Throwing off depression with strength of reason or willpower is a misunderstanding of how untreated depressed people adapt and occasionally heal, not a prescription.
The human body is built to survive, and the brain is no exception, but a rational person should always try to supplement their natural strength with medicine when their life is on the line. Advising anything else seems irresponsible.
Gwern is the go-to person here, but it is my impression that "standard" anti-depression drugs are neither particularly effective nor free of serious side-effects. And things which are more effective -- like ketamine -- are very rarely prescribed.
More or less, but it's a question of levels. SSRIs didn't do much for me and a lot of other people, plus weight gain sucks (luckily no sexual dysfunction), but they're not particularly dangerous from what I understand. Stuff like Bupropion is awesome, as long as you don't mind sobriety and have a low risk for seizures. There's other drugs which modify SSRIs too, but I've never had any and they're supposedly more on the 'side-effect-y' side. New stuff like Ketamine is waaay out there, like almost on par with electroconvulsive therapy, in terms of how likely you are to see it but IDK what it's like in terms of safety.
But once the 'trial-and-error' portion of dosing is over with though and you're on something that works for you, it's absolutely night and day. I can only speak for myself obviously but it was a complete perspective switch, like someone flipped a switch in my head to 'not miserable.'
(Obviously I'm not an expert, just a guy who's spent some time on the patient end of things. I am really interested to hear Yvain's answer if he has one.)
Many drugs are probably not what you would call effective, but they're still worth trying. You'd be surprised how many drugs are not free of serious side effects. Luckily these effects are usually too rare to care about. It's just that taboo drugs get most of the attention and armchair medicine.
I really wish these kinds of discussions would begin and end with "I think you're depressed, it's a medical condition, go see a doctor. insert social support" Don't screw with a life threatening condition. Not pointing at you specifically.
Well, it's a bit more complicated than that.
First, diagnosing strangers with psychiatric disorders over the Internet has a long history and, um, let's say it didn't always work out well :-D
Second, depression is a spectrum issue -- there are clear extremes but also there is a big muddle in the middle. You have to be careful of medicalizing psychological states which is a bad direction to go into.
Agreed. That's what the "I think" and "doctor" parts are for. Better safe than sorry.
That's why there are experts whose job is to assess what's medical and what's not.
What is bad about medicalization? This could be an interesting topic to explore.
It narrows the range of what's considered "normal". It proposes medical solutions to what are not necessarily medical problems. It is, to a large degree, a way of expanding the market for the big pharma.
Lots of problems, google it up if you're interested...
I think your perception of this problem has more to do with stigma associated with medical conditions. If you taboo the associated words, what you're left with is improving people and what's wrong with that? Do you oppose transhumanism on the same grounds?
And big pharma, we meet again. What is this singular, evil, money grabbing entity? I'd try to google it but I know I'd meet a violent mess of blogosphere mythology.
If you're interested in anti-depressants, you should talk to Yvain, what with him being a head-doctor and all.
I would recommend investigating the safety and efficacy of selegiline. Seems somewhat effective, safe, and available (albeit from overseas for US users). Do your own homework though.
How are these two at all mutual exclusive?
It's a mistake to assign truth values to emotions. They can't be correct or incorrect, they can be only helpful or unhelpful. And I don't think depression is ever helpful, barring convoluted thought experiments.
As someone who's been in that boat, get in touch with a psychiatrist ASAP. It can very literally save your life, not to mention making it much much better on a day-to-day level.
Life is terrible, but it's also strange and beautiful; if you can't see a reason to continue with it, there is most likely an underlying problem (even if it is just "faulty wiring") which drugs and therapy can help you identify.
I cannot recommend seeing a psychiatrist more completely.
An external view of your life and health, from a trusted professional, may help you identify causes of your discomfort and, most importantly, strategies to improve your life.
Some lives are and others aren't. Without knowing anything about you I can't tell, but given that you can write in English and access the Web, I'd guess yours probably isn't and join the other people in suggesting that you see a professional.
I'm not sure how it works in your country, but you don't necessarily need a psychiatrist to diagnose and treat depression. Also it's good to check for bodily conditions that could make you feel like crap, and a non-psychiatrist might do that more reliably.