hyporational comments on Open Thread, October 20 - 26, 2013 - Less Wrong

2 Post author: Adele_L 21 October 2013 03:11AM

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Comment author: hyporational 24 October 2013 03:35:55PM 0 points [-]

Many drugs are probably not what you would call effective, but they're still worth trying. You'd be surprised how many drugs are not free of serious side effects. Luckily these effects are usually too rare to care about. It's just that taboo drugs get most of the attention and armchair medicine.

I really wish these kinds of discussions would begin and end with "I think you're depressed, it's a medical condition, go see a doctor. insert social support" Don't screw with a life threatening condition. Not pointing at you specifically.

Comment author: Lumifer 24 October 2013 04:00:31PM 2 points [-]

I really wish these kinds of discussions would begin and end with "I think you're depressed, it's a medical condition, go see a doctor.

Well, it's a bit more complicated than that.

First, diagnosing strangers with psychiatric disorders over the Internet has a long history and, um, let's say it didn't always work out well :-D

Second, depression is a spectrum issue -- there are clear extremes but also there is a big muddle in the middle. You have to be careful of medicalizing psychological states which is a bad direction to go into.

Comment author: hyporational 24 October 2013 04:20:41PM 2 points [-]

First, diagnosing strangers with psychiatric disorders over the Internet has a long history and, um, let's say it didn't always work out well :-D

Agreed. That's what the "I think" and "doctor" parts are for. Better safe than sorry.

Second, depression is a spectrum issue -- there are clear extremes but also there is a big muddle in the middle.

That's why there are experts whose job is to assess what's medical and what's not.

What is bad about medicalization? This could be an interesting topic to explore.

Comment author: Lumifer 24 October 2013 05:12:37PM *  0 points [-]

What is bad about medicalization?

It narrows the range of what's considered "normal". It proposes medical solutions to what are not necessarily medical problems. It is, to a large degree, a way of expanding the market for the big pharma.

Lots of problems, google it up if you're interested...

Comment author: hyporational 24 October 2013 05:51:33PM *  1 point [-]

It narrows the range of what's considered "normal". It proposes medical solutions to what are not necessarily medical problems.

I think your perception of this problem has more to do with stigma associated with medical conditions. If you taboo the associated words, what you're left with is improving people and what's wrong with that? Do you oppose transhumanism on the same grounds?

And big pharma, we meet again. What is this singular, evil, money grabbing entity? I'd try to google it but I know I'd meet a violent mess of blogosphere mythology.

Comment author: ChristianKl 25 October 2013 12:40:48PM *  2 points [-]

And big pharma, we meet again. What is this singular, evil, money grabbing entity?

In the most narrow definition big pharma means AstraZeneca, Bristol-Myers Squibb Eli Lilly, GlaxoSmithKline, Merck, Novartis, Pfizer and Sanofi-Aventis.

If you define it a bit more widely it also includes the other members of PhRMA.

Those companies make money through being gatekeeprs. In the words of Sanofi-Aventis CEO Viehbacher that idea gets expressed:

The new model, where we’re trying to go, we believe that Big Pharma has competencies in validation. So, if a Big Pharma company does a deal with a smaller company, the smaller company’s share price goes up because people believe that Big Pharma has depth of competencies to judge whether this science is any good or not. Now big companies, and not just Big Pharma, big companies I believe, are not any good at doing innovation.

In addition to validation big pharma also invests a lot of money in capturing the political process and pushing their drugs through various forms of marketing on as many people as possible.

As they make money by being a gatekeeper they make it harder for other people to enter the health care market.

If you taboo the associated words, what you're left with is improving people and what's wrong with that? Do you oppose transhumanism on the same grounds?

The goal of transhumaism isn't to make people more normal. Various forms of transhumanism increase human diversity.

Comment author: hyporational 25 October 2013 01:33:15PM *  1 point [-]

Upvoted for defining big pharma. Ok, let's say big pharma makes money as a gate keeper and controls policy. Does this argument lead us to some definitive point where's it's clear which drugs and treatments are good and which aren't, which drugs and treatments should be opposed and which shouldn't?

The goal of transhumanism isn't to make people more normal. Various forms of transhumaism increase human diversity.

Making people normal isn't my goal either.

Comment author: Lumifer 24 October 2013 06:12:10PM 1 point [-]

you taboo the associated words, what you're left with is improving people and what's wrong with that?

What makes you think it's improving people?

Look at my post again -- which words would you like to taboo? I am pretty sure I can rewrite it without them.

What is this singular, evil, money grabbing entity?

It's neither singular nor evil. However it is a collection of entities which have certain goals (which mostly involve profits) and incentives to pursue these goals.

Comment author: hyporational 24 October 2013 06:39:55PM 1 point [-]

I'm not saying medicalization = improving people. What I'm saying is most solutions that are pejoratively called medicalization probably improve people in their opinion. From your post I would taboo "medical", "medicalization", "normal" and "big pharma". Keep in mind that medicine is optional and patients have different perceptions of what they would call improvement. I think they should have as many options as possible and safe.

It's neither singular nor evil. However it is a collection of entities which have certain goals (which mostly involve profits) and incentives to pursue these goals.

I was unfair and I agree with this. They also compete with each other and with regulating mechanisms. Therefore I think "big pharma" is a lazy and misleading expression.

Comment author: Lumifer 24 October 2013 06:54:59PM 1 point [-]

From your post I would taboo "medical", "medicalization", "normal" and "big pharma"

Sure.

The trend to consider certain conditions and psychological states "diseases" or "illnesses" (which implies biological causality) is bad because:

  • It narrows the range of what's considered acceptable human variation. Consider e.g. a grumpy guy. Would it be good if he were to be diagnosed with the illness of grumpiness (with associated social costs) and prescribed a pill for that?

  • It assumes biological causality for what are not necessarily problems of human biology (or biochemistry).

  • There are considerable forces in the business world which would stand to gain huge amounts of money were this to happen. This is not an outright argument against per se, but it does make one suspicious.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 24 October 2013 09:59:47PM *  2 points [-]

Consider e.g. a grumpy guy. Would it be good if he were to be diagnosed with the illness of grumpiness (with associated social costs) and prescribed a pill for that?

Well, among other things, it depends on what the pill does. If it doesn't make him less grumpy, for example, then I can't see any benefit at all. If it makes him less grumpy but also does a bunch of other stuff that leaves him worse off, then there's no net benefit. Etc.

All that aside, if being prescribed a pill that makes me less grumpy inevitably subjects me to social attack, I would say that being able to be less grumpy is a good thing, and the social attacks are bad things, and the net value of being prescribed the pill depends on the ratio of costs to benefits.

And in both cases, I would strongly endorse a social shift that stops attacking me for being prescribed such a pill, rather than blame the pill for the social attacks. There's all kinds of things I can do that subject me to social attacks; blaming me for doing them on that basis is suboptimal.

It assumes biological causality for what are not necessarily problems of human biology (or biochemistry).

Here again, it depends on what the pill does. If I start with a false theory of the causes of the problem, I'm unlikely to come up with a pill that actually solves the problem in an acceptably targetted way; by the same token, if the pill actually does make me less grumpy without too many side-effects, that's a pretty good sign that there's a biological (or biochemical) cause for grumpiness.

Incidentally, I would say all the same things about being prescribed a pill that makes me less cancerous.

Comment author: Lumifer 25 October 2013 01:14:30AM 0 points [-]

Well, among other things, it depends on what the pill does.

Actually, I would argue that it's not good regardless of what the pill does.

then I can't see any benefit at all

That's 'cause you're looking at it too narrowly. Is there a benefit for the doctor who sees the guy and who gets paid for it? Sure is. Is there benefit for the company which makes the pill and sells it for a nice profit? Sure is.

if being prescribed a pill that ... inevitably subjects me to social attack

What subjects you to social attack is having been diagnosed with a mental illness.

There's all kinds of things I can do

It's not what you can do -- it's what can be done to you.

if the pill actually does make me less grumpy without too many side-effects, that's a pretty good sign that there's a biological (or biochemical) cause for grumpiness.

Not necessarily. A common description of the effects of SSRI anti-depressants on some people is that they make you feel completely indifferent inside. Sure, you don't want to kill yourself any more, but you don't want ANYTHING. I am pretty sure that if you react to anti-depressants this way, they will also make you less grumpy. That doesn't mean grumpiness has a biochemical cause.

Comment author: hyporational 25 October 2013 02:47:45AM *  1 point [-]

The trend to consider certain conditions and psychological states "diseases" or "illnesses" (which implies biological causality) is bad because:

This is why I thought that tabooing "associated words" would be a good thing. Many treatable conditions in medicine are not considered "diseases" or "illnesses" anymore, and they shouldn't be. This especially applies to psychiatry. Many diagnoses cannot be made unless the condition "causes significant harm to the patient" is met.

I would go even further than most doctors, and say that it's a failure of medicine to only try to normalize harmful conditions instead of trying to improve upon what's considered normal. This means that the language of medicine has to change even further. A diagnosis certainly shouldn't automatically be a "disease" and not even a "disorder".

It narrows the range of what's considered acceptable human variation. Consider e.g. a grumpy guy. Would it be good if he were to be diagnosed with the illness of grumpiness (with associated social costs) and prescribed a pill for that?

"Acceptable human variation" and "illness of grumpiness" is a again a way to say there should be stigma attached to a diagnosis. I don't think there should and this is a separate problem from whether certain conditions should be considered treatable. If the guy thinks his grumpiness is a problem and causes significant harm, and it can be treated without side effects that are unacceptable to him, and he would knowingly accept the social costs, then I think he should have the option of treatment available. A diagnosis isn't an illness, it's a label that doctors use to communicate with each other.

Also keep in mind that therapy is a medical intervention too, and is usually better for specific behavioral problems.

It assumes biological causality for what are not necessarily problems of human biology (or biochemistry).

Like TheOtherDave said, the pill is unlikely to work, unless there is a biological mechanism involved.

There are considerable forces in the business world which would stand to gain huge amounts of money were this to happen. This is not an outright argument against per se, but it does make one suspicious.

In this case one should be suspicious of all treatments and not just psychiatric ones, and perhaps one should. I think this is a separate problem from whether certain conditions should be considered treatable. There's certainly a need for a system that has less perverse incentives.

Comment author: Lumifer 27 October 2013 02:58:42AM 0 points [-]

Well, I think you and I are approaching this thing from opposite directions. You're an optimist and I'm a cynic. Here's what I think you are imagining:

Grumpy Guy: Doctor, I'm grumpy. I don't want to be grumpy, it seriously screws up my life. Can anything be done to make me less grumpy?

Doctor: Hmm... Well, there that pill. Try it, see if it helps you.

And here's what I'm imagining:

Grumpy Guy: I'm here for my annual check-up.

Doctor: Hmm, you look grumpy. That's not good. <goes looks into his DSM manual> Tell me, does grumpiness lead to impairment of your social life?

Grumpy Guy: Um, I don't know. I guess..

Doctor: Aha! I hereby diagnose you with grumpiness. Here are two pills, come visit me in a month, we'll adjust the dosage and the interaction of the two pills. You will have to take them for the rest of your life. See you in a month!