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TheOtherDave comments on Less Wrong’s political bias - Less Wrong
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Can you unpack "grotesque" and "abomination"? When people use words like that I mostly understand them to be conveying disagreement, along with the desire to rile people up in unproductive ways, but I understand you here to be claiming to have different goals than that. I'm not sure what they are.
Disagree really isn't right at all. I disagree that 2+2=5. Progressivism is a set of values and programs to implement those values that runs counter to my values. Strongly counter to my values. I'm not disagreeing, I'm disvaluing.
For my own part, I have no difficulty talking about people disagreeing over values, but I'm content to talk about people having values that run counter to each other's values instead, if you prefer that.
So... when you call a system "grotesque" or a moral foundation an "abomination," you're conveying that your values run strongly counter to it? Did I understand that right?
Well, I'm not Spock tallying up a spreadsheet of values, so another part of what I'm communicating is my emotional reaction, and the intensity thereof. And indeed, that my reaction is a moral reaction, with some of the associated multi-ordinal punishing and disapproval characteristic of moral reactions. Though in this case, not punishing as much as a withdrawal of goodwill and a will to protect when they get screwed by the systems they advocate.
Grotesque and abomination also connote the twisted evil of the systems. One example. The poor who are supposedly so cared for are systematically punished if they take actions to improve their situation. Get a job, and face effective marginal tax rates, counting government benefits, often in excess of 100%. Find a partner to share the burdens of life, and likewise lose benefits.
Not just harmful, but a perverse and twisted harm, punishing someone for trying to do the right thing and improve their lot in life. When the "unintended consequences" of the system look similar to what a sadist would do who was trying to cripple people, I think "grotesque" and "abomination" applies.
So "grotesque" and "abomination" are meant to convey that the other side is not only incorrect, but also to express your moral judgment of the other side's position as twisted, evil, and perverse, and also to express your withdrawal of goodwill from the individuals who hold that position, and your reduced willingness to protect them from certain kinds of harm (specifically, from harmful consequences of that position).
Do I have it right now?
No, not right.
The same issue as "disagree". 2+2=5 is incorrect. I'm not saying that their position is incorrect. Clippy isn't "incorrect" either.
Both the loss of goodwill and willingness to protect are contextual on the same types of situation, while I read what you wrote as making the loss of goodwill general.
OK.