lmm comments on Open Thread, October 27 - 31, 2013 - Less Wrong

2 Post author: mare-of-night 28 October 2013 12:59AM

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Comment author: lmm 31 October 2013 04:29:03AM 7 points [-]

I'm legitimately worried about the money and the incentives it creates. What would a self-interested agent (LW seems to use "agent" in exactly the opposite sense to what I'd expect it to mean, but I hope I'm clear) in the position of the LW leadership do? My cynical view is: write some papers about how the problems they need to solve are really hard; write enough papers each year to appear to be making progress, and live lives of luxury. So what's stopping them? People in charities that provide far more fuzzies than LW have become disenchanted. People far dumber than Yudkowsky have found rationalizations to live well for themselves on the dime of the charity they run. Corrupt priests of every generation have professed as much faith that performing their actual mission would result in very high future utility, while in fact neglecting those duties for earthly pleasures.

Even if none of the leadership are blowing funds on crack and hookers, if they're all just living ascetically and writing papers, that's actually the same failure mode if they're not being effective at preventing UFAI. When founding the first police force, one of Peel's key principles was that the only way they could be evaluated was the prevalence of crime - not how much work the police were seen to be doing, not how good the public felt about their efforts. It's very hard to find a similar standard with which to hold LW to account.

It occurs to me as I write that I have no idea what the LW funding structure is - whether the site is funded by the CFAR, MIRI, SIAI or something else. Even having all these distinct bodies with mostly the same members smells fishy, seems more likely to be politics than practicalities.

The kookiness... if LW were really more rational than others, I'd expect them to do some weird-but-not-harmful-to-others things. So I suspect this is more a perception than reality thing (Though if there are good answers to "what's the empirical distinction between real and fake cryonics" and "why do you expect polyamory to turn out better for you lot than it did for the '60s hippie communes" it'd be nice to see them). IMO the prime counter would be visible effectiveness. A rich person with some weird habits is an eccentric genius; a poor person with weird habits is just a crank.

It would be really nice to have more verifiable results that say LW-style rationality is good for people (or to know that it isn't and respond accordingly). The failure mode here is that we do a bunch of things that feel good and pat each other on the back and actually it's all placebos. We actually see a fair few articles here claiming that reading LW is bad for you, or that rationality doesn't make people happier. On thinking it through this would be the kind of cult that's basically harmless, so I'm not too concerned. On the perception side, IMO discussing health is not worth the damage it does to the way the community is seen (the first weight-loss thread I saw caused a palpable drop in my confidence in the site). I've no idea how to practically move away from doing so though.

Secrets and bans rub me very strongly the wrong way, and seem likely to damage our efforts in nonobvious ways (to put it another way, secretive organizations tend to become ineffective at their original aims, and I'm worried about this failure mode). I certainly don't think the ban on the basilisk is effective at its purported aim, given that it's still talked about on the internet. And just having this kind of deception around immediately sets off a whole chain of other doubts - what if it's banned for other reasons? What else is banned?

If there really is a need for these bans, there should be a clear set of rules and some kind of review. That would certainly address the perception, and hopefully the actuality too.

I think the use of fictional evidence is actually dangerous. Given the apparently high value of LW-memetic fiction in recruiting, I don't know where the balance is. I think overuse of jargon is just a perceptual problem (though probably worth addressing).

I have... unusual views on diversity, so I don't think setting people against their less-rational friends is an actual problem (in the sense of being damaging to the organization's aims); I file this as a perceptual problem. The most obvious counter I can think of is more politeness about common popular misbeliefs, and less condescension when correcting each other. But I suspect these are problems inherent to internet fora (which doesn't mean they're not real; I would suggest that e.g. reddit has a (minor) cultish aspect to it, one that's offputting to participation. But there may not be any counter).

The hierarchy: in the short term it's merely annoying, but long-term I worry about committee politics. If some of the higher-ups fell out in private (and given that several of them appear to be dating each other that seems likely) and began sniping at each other in the course of their duties, and catching innocent users in the crossfire... I've seen that happen in similar organizations and be very damaging. Actual concern.

So in summary: actual concern: where the money goes, any secrets the organization keeps, clarity of the leadership hierarchy, overuse of fiction. superficial issues: overuse of jargon. The rest of my list is on reflection probably not worth worrying about.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 31 October 2013 08:46:48AM *  1 point [-]

the CFAR, MIRI, SIAI or something else

MIRI and SIAI are the same organization: SIAI is MIRI's old name, now no longer used because people kept confusing the Singularity Institute and Singularity University.

(AFAIK, LW has traditionally been funded by MIRI, but I'm not sure how the MIRI/CFAR split has affected this.)

"why do you expect polyamory to turn out better for you lot than it did for the '60s hippie communes"

One might as well ask "why do you expect monogamy to turn out better than it did for all the people who have gone through a series of dysfunctional relationships". Being in any kind of relationship is difficult, and some relationships will always be unsuccessful. Furthermore, just as there are many kinds of monogamous relationships - from the straight lovers who have been together since high school, to the remarried gay couple with a 20-year age difference, to the arranged marriage who've gradually grown to love each other and who practice BDSM - there are many kinds of polyamorous relationships, and the failure modes of one may or may not be relevant for another.

If you specify "the kinds of relationships practiced in the hippie communes of the sixties", you're not just specifying a polyamorous relationship style, you're also specifying a large list of other cultural norms - just as saying "conventional marriages in the 1950's United States" singles out a much narrower set of relationship behaviors than just "monogamy", and "conventional marriages among middle class white people in the 1950's United States" even more so.

And we haven't even said anything about the personalities of the people in question - the kinds of people who end up moving to hippie communes are likely to represent a very particular set of personality types, each of which may make them more susceptible to some kinds of problems and more resistant to others. Other poly people may or may not represent the same personality types, so their relationships may or may not involve the same kinds of problems.

Answering your original question would require detailed knowledge about such communes, while most poly people are more focused on solving the kinds of relationship problems that pop up in their own lives.

Comment author: lmm 01 November 2013 07:54:48PM 3 points [-]

You're right, I overextended myself in what I wrote. What I meant was: I'm aware of long-term successful communities practicing monogamy, and long-term somewhat successful communities practicing limited polygyny - i.e. cases where we can reasonably conclude that the overall utility is positive. I'm not aware of long-term successful communities practicing other forms such as full polyamory (which may well be my own ignorance).

The fact that a small group of bay-area twentysomethings has been successfully practicing polyamory for a few years does not convince me that the overall utility of polyamory is positive. That's because with '60s hippie communes my understanding is that a small group of bay-area twentysomethings were successfully practicing polyamory for a few years, but eventually various "black swan"-type events (bwim events analogous to stock market crashes, but for utility rather than economic value) occurred, and it turns out the overall utility of those communes was negative despite the positive early years. If today's polyamorists want to convince me that "this time is different" they would have some work to do.

(I'm not an expert on the history. It's entirely possible I'm simply wrong, in which case I'd appreciate pointers to well-written popular accounts that are more accurate than the ones I'm currently basing my judgement on).

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 02 November 2013 12:35:48PM *  3 points [-]

It still sounds like you're talking about poly as if it was a coherent whole, when it's really lots and lots of different things, some with a longer history than others. Take a look at this map, for instance - and note that many of the non-monogamous behaviors may overlap with ostensibly monogamous practices. E.g this article, written by a sexuality counselor, (EDIT: removed questionable prevalence figure) basically says that swinging works for some couples and doesn't work for others. Similarly, for everything else in that map, you could find reports from different people (either contemporary people or historical figures) who've done something like it, with it having been a good idea for some, and a bad idea for others.

I guess the main thing that puzzles me about your comments is that you seem to be asking for some general argument for why (some specific form of) polyamory could be expected to work for everyone. Whereas my inclination would be to say "well, if you describe to me the people in question and the specific form of relationship arrangement they're trying out, I guess I could try to hazard a guess of whether that arrangement might work for them", without any claim of whether that statement would generalize for anyone else in any other situation. For example, in Is Polyamory a Choice?, Michael Carey writes:

Meanwhile, there are some people whose innate personality traits make it very difficult to live happily in a monogamous relationship but relatively easy to be happy in an open one. [...] But there are almost certainly also some “obligate” non-monogamists who would never feel emotionally satisfied and healthy in a monogamous relationship, any more than a gay man would be satisfied and healthy in a straight marriage. [...] My experience suggests that perhaps half to two-thirds of polyamorists—those who want to be able to fully embrace multiple loving relationships, with sex as merely part of that (albeit an important part, just as it is in monogamous relationships)—are “obligate poly.” I’ve heard a lot of stories from people about having a few miserable monogamous relationships before they were introduced to the concept of honest, consensual non-monogamy.

I've also personally ran into cases of "naturally poly" people, who couldn't prevent themselves from falling into love with multiple people at once, and who were utterly miserable if they had to kill those emotions: if they wanted to stay monogamous, they would have been forced to practically stop having any close friendships with people of the sexes that they were attracted to. For those people, it seems obvious that some kind of non-monogamous arrangement is the only kind of relationship in which they can ever feel really happy. (I don't need to find an example of a visible community that has successfully practiced large-scale polyamory in order to realize that this kind of a person would be miserable in a monogamous arrangement.) At the same time, I also know of people are not only utterly incapable of loving more than one person, but also quite jealous: for those people, it seems obvious that a monogamous relationship is the right one.

Then there are people who are neither clearly poly nor clearly mono (I currently count myself as belonging to this category). For them the best choice requires some experimentation and probably also depends on the circumstances, e.g. if they fall in love with a clearly poly person, then a poly relationship might work best, but so might a mono relationship if they fell in love with someone who was very monogamous.

Then there are people who don't necessarily experience romantic attraction to others, but also don't experience much sexual jealousy and feel like having sex with others would just spice up the relationship they have with their primary partner: they might want to try out e.g. swinging. And so on.

Comment author: gwern 02 November 2013 02:34:27PM 6 points [-]

E.g this article, written by a sexuality counselor, claims that some experts believe that there could be as many 15 million Americans swinging on a regular basis, and basically says that swinging works for some couples and doesn't work for others.

I don't believe that for a second and you should apply a little more critical thought to these numbers. What experts? What are they basing this on? Searching for this, I find nothing but echo chambers of media articles - "experts say", "some experts think", etc. Is 15 million remotely plausible? There are ~232m adults in the US, half are married, so 15m swingers would imply that 13% of marriages are open.

Slightly better are 'estimates' (or was it 'a study'?) attributed to the Kinsey Institute of 2-4% of married couples being swingers, but that's also quoted as '2-4m' (a bit different) and one commenter even quotes it as 2-4% being 'the BDSM and swing communities', which reduces the size even more. All irrelevant, since I am unable to track down any study or official statement from Kinsey so I can't even look at the methodology or assumptions they made to get those supposed numbers.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 02 November 2013 03:11:56PM 1 point [-]

Fair point - the exact number wasn't very important for my argument (I believe it would still carry even with the 2-4% or 2-4m figure), so I just grabbed the first figure I found. It passed my initial sanity check because I interpreted the "couples" to include "non-married couples", and misremembered the US population to be 500 million rather than 300 million. (~4% of the adult population being swingers didn't sound too unreasonable.)

Comment author: lmm 03 November 2013 12:06:30AM *  3 points [-]

I guess the main thing that puzzles me about your comments is that you seem to be asking for some general argument for why (some specific form of) polyamory could be expected to work for everyone. Whereas my inclination would be to say "well, if you describe to me the people in question and the specific form of relationship arrangement they're trying out, I guess I could try to hazard a guess of whether that arrangement might work for them", without any claim of whether that statement would generalize for anyone else in any other situation.

I think the argument goes through the same way though. I understand your position to be: a culture in which a variety of different relationships are accepted and respected (among both leaders and ordinary citizens), and LW-style polyamory is one of those many varieties, can be stable, productive, and generally successful and high-utility. The question remains: why don't we see historical examples of such societies? While you're right that even nominally monogamous societies usually tolerate some greater or lesser degree of non-monogamous behavior, the kind of polyamory practiced by some prominent LW members is, I think, without such precedent, and would be condemned in all historically successful societies (including, I think, contemporary american society; while we don't imprison people for it, I don't think we'd elect a leader who openly engaged in such relationships, for example).

Yes, there's a small self-selecting bay area community which operates in the way you describe. But I don't think that community has (yet) demonstrated itself to be successful; other communities have achieved the same level of success that they currently enjoy, and then undergone dramatic collapse shortly after.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 06 November 2013 10:37:09AM 1 point [-]

Well, one possibility would be that a polyamorous inclination is simply rare. In that case, we wouldn't expect any society to adopt large-scale polyamorous practices for the same reason why we wouldn't expect any society to adopt e.g. large-scale asexual or homosexual practices.

But then there's also the issue that most societies have traditionally been patriarchal, with strict restrictions on women's sexuality in general (partially due to early contraception being unreliable and pregnancies dangerous). If you assumed that polyamory could work, but that most societies in history wouldn't want to give women the same kind of sexual freedom as men, then that would suggest that we could expect to see lots of polygamous societies... which does seem to be case.

But I don't think that community has (yet) demonstrated itself to be successful; other communities have achieved the same level of success that they currently enjoy, and then undergone dramatic collapse shortly after.

What counts as success, anyway? Does a relationship have to last for life in order to be successful? I wouldn't count e.g. a happy relationship of five years to be a failure, if it produces five years of happiness for everyone involved.

Comment author: lmm 06 November 2013 09:38:18PM 3 points [-]

But then there's also the issue that most societies have traditionally been patriarchal, with strict restrictions on women's sexuality in general (partially due to early contraception being unreliable and pregnancies dangerous). If you assumed that polyamory could work, but that most societies in history wouldn't want to give women the same kind of sexual freedom as men, then that would suggest that we could expect to see lots of polygamous societies... which does seem to be case.

I think you're putting the cart before the horse there. If patriarchy is a near-human-universal, doesn't that suggest there's a good reason for it?

What counts as success, anyway? Does a relationship have to last for life in order to be successful? I wouldn't count e.g. a happy relationship of five years to be a failure, if it produces five years of happiness for everyone involved.

My impression is that the downsides of breakup dominate the overall utility compared to the marginal increase from having a better relationship. Particularly in the presence of children.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 07 November 2013 06:23:22AM *  1 point [-]

If patriarchy is a near-human-universal, doesn't that suggest there's a good reason for it?

Sure - it was probably a natural adaptation to the level of contraception, healthcare, and overall wealth available at the time. Doesn't mean it would be a good idea anymore.

And if you wish to reinstate patriarchy, then singling out polyamory as a suspicious modern practice seems rather arbitrary. There's a lot of bigger stuff that you'd want to consider changing, like whether women are allowed to vote... or, if we wish to stay on the personal level, you'd want to question any relationships in which both sexes were considered equal in the first place.

My impression is that the downsides of breakup dominate the overall utility compared to the marginal increase from having a better relationship. Particularly in the presence of children.

That sounds unlikely in the general case (though there are definitely some spectacularly messy break-ups where that is true), but of course it depends on your utility function.

Comment author: lmm 07 November 2013 01:34:34PM 2 points [-]

or, if we wish to stay on the personal level, you'd want to question any relationships in which both sexes were considered equal in the first place.

I think that happens; it's hard to imagine e.g. a president with anything other than a traditional family (were/are the Clintons equals? More so than those before them, but in public at least Hilary conformed to the traditional "supportive wife" role (in a way that I think contrasts with Bill's position for the 2008 primaries)). To a certain extent LW is always going to seem cultish if our leaders' relationships are at odds with the traditional forms for such. And I don't think that's irrational: in cases where failures are rare but highly damaging, it makes sense to accord more weight to tradition than we normally do.

(on the voting analogy: I'd be very cautious about adopting any change to our political system that had no historical precedent and seemed like it might increase our odds of going to war, even if it had been tried and shown to be better in a few years of day-to-day use. I don't think that's an argument against women having the vote (they're stereotypically less warlike - although it has been argued that the Falklands War happened because Thatcher felt the need to prove herself and wouldn't've occurred under a male PM), but it is certainly an argument for not extending the vote to non-landowners and under-21s. In as much as war has declined since the vote was extended to non-landowners and under-21s - which is actually, now that I think about it, really quite surprising - I guess that's evidence against this position)

Comment author: TheOtherDave 06 November 2013 10:15:47PM 1 point [-]

There are many relationships where the "marginal" increase from not being in that relationship anymore far outweigh the downsides of the breakup.

Comment author: Lumifer 06 November 2013 09:51:17PM 1 point [-]

My impression is that the downsides of breakup dominate the overall utility compared to the marginal increase from having a better relationship.

My impression is the reverse. Breakups tend to be sharply painful, but the wounds heal in a matter of months or at most a few years. But if you're unwilling to consider breakups, being in a miserable relationship is for the rest of your life.

Comment author: Lumifer 06 November 2013 09:48:31PM 1 point [-]

If patriarchy is a near-human-universal, doesn't that suggest there's a good reason for it?

Sure there are good reasons. Physical strength is one. Not being in a semi-permanent state of either pregnant or breast-feeding is another.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 06 November 2013 01:45:35PM 2 points [-]

In general agreed, but a quibble about:

Well, one possibility would be that a polyamorous inclination is simply rare. In that case, we wouldn't expect any society to adopt large-scale polyamorous practices for the same reason why we wouldn't expect any society to adopt e.g. large-scale asexual or homosexual practices.

I don't think I would necessarily expect that.

Of course, it depends a lot on what we mean by "large scale". A society with a 5% Buddhist minority can still have large-scale Buddhist practice (e.g., millions of people practicing Buddhism in a public and generally accepted way). I would say some U.S. states are visibly adopting homosexual practices (e.g. same-sex marriage) on a large scale, despite it being very much a minority option, for example.

In the absence of any other social forces pushing people towards nominally exclusive monogamy/monoandry (and heterosexuality, come to that) I would expect something like that kind of heterogeneity for natural inclinations.

Of course, in the real world those social forces exist and are powerful, so my expectations change accordingly.