Lumifer comments on No Universally Compelling Arguments in Math or Science - Less Wrong

30 Post author: ChrisHallquist 05 November 2013 03:32AM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (227)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: Lumifer 12 November 2013 05:16:16PM 1 point [-]

Democracy requires capable voters in the same way capitalism requires altruistic merchants.

In other words, not at all.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 12 November 2013 05:52:13PM 1 point [-]

Democracy requires capable voters in the same way capitalism requires altruistic merchants.

The grandparent is wrong, but I don't think this is quite right either. Democracy roughly tracks the capability (at the very least in the domain of delegation) and preference of the median voter, but in a capitalistic economy you don't have to buy services from the median firm. You can choose to only purchase from the best firm or no firm at all if none offer favorable terms.

Comment author: Lumifer 12 November 2013 06:00:54PM *  1 point [-]

in a capitalistic economy you don't have to buy services from the median firm

In the equilibrium, the average consumer buys from the average firm. Otherwise it doesn't stay average for long.

However the core of the issue is that democracy is a mechanism, it's not guaranteed to produce optimal or even good results. Having "bad" voters will not prevent the mechanism of democracy from functioning, it just might lead to "bad" results.

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L.Mencken.

Comment author: gattsuru 12 November 2013 06:54:12PM 1 point [-]

In the equilibrium, the average consumer buys from the average firm. Otherwise it doesn't stay average for long.

The median consumer of a good purchases from (somewhere around) the median firm selling a good. That doesn't necessarily aggregate, and it certainly doesn't weigh all consumers or firms equally. The consumers who buy the most of a good tend to have different preferences and research opportunities than average consumers, for example.

You could get similar results in a democracy, but most democracies don't really encourage it : most places emphasize voting regardless of knowledge of a topic, and some jurisdictions mandate it.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 12 November 2013 05:56:00PM -1 points [-]

Could you clarify? Are you saying that for democracy to exist it doesn't require capable voters, or that for democracy to work well that it doesn't?

In the classic free-market argument, merchants don't have to be altruistic to accomplish the general good, because the way to advance their private interest is to sell goods that other people want. But that doesn't generalize to democracy, since there isn't trading involved in democratic voting.

Comment author: Lumifer 12 November 2013 06:07:54PM *  2 points [-]

Could you clarify?

See here

However there is the question of what "working well" means, given that humans are not rational and satisfying expressed desires might or might not fall under the "working well" label.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 12 November 2013 11:30:16PM *  0 points [-]

See here

Ah, I see. You're just saying that democracy doesn't stop happening just because voters have preferences I don't approve of. :)

Comment author: Lumifer 13 November 2013 02:24:24AM 2 points [-]

Actually, I'm making a stronger claim -- voters can screw themselves up in pretty serious fashion and it's still will be full-blown democracy in action.