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TheAncientGeek comments on No Universally Compelling Arguments in Math or Science - Less Wrong
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The original point was:
People offer differing theories of the same X, that is X defined in the same way. That is the essence of a disagreement. If they are not talking about the same X, they are not disagreeing, they are talking past each other.
There might be reasons to think that, in individual cases, people who appear to be disagreeiing are in fact talking past each other, But that is a point that needs to be argued for specific cases.
To claim that anything someone says about X is part of a definition of X , has the implication that in all cases, automatically, without regard to the individual details, there are no real diagreementss about any X but only different definitions. That is surely wrong, for all that it is popular with some on LW
That would be a theory. If falls heavily on the side of subjetivism/non-cognitivism, which many disagree with.
People aren't perfectly self-aware. They don't often know how to define precisely what it is that they mean. They "know it when they see it" instead.
Accepting the split between "definition" and "theory" I suppose the definition of "sound" would be something like "that which triggers our sense of hearing", and a theory of sound would be "sound is the perception of air vibrations"?
In which case I don't know how it could be that a definition of morality could be different than "that which triggers our moral sense" -- in analogy to the definition of sound. In which case I accept that my described opinion (that what triggers our moral sense is a calculation of "what our preferences would be about people's behaviour if we had no personal stakes on the matter") is merely a theory of morality.
I don't see how that relates to my point.
You can easily look up definitions that don't work that way, eg: "Morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are "good" (or right) and those that are "bad" (or wrong)."
You said that "people offer differing theories of the same X, that is X defined in the same way". I'm saying that people disagree on how to define concepts they instinctively feel -- such as the concept of morality. So the X isn't "defined in the same way".
Yeah well, when I'm talking about definition I mean something that helps us logically pinpoint or atleast circumscribe a thing. Circular definitions like jumping from "morality" to "good" or to "what one should do" don't really work for me, since they can quite easily be defined the opposite way.
To properly define something one ought use terms more fundamental than the thing defined.
What, not ever? By anybody? Even people who have agreed on on an explicit definition?
It isn't clearly un-circular to define morality as that which triggers the moral sense.
Your definition has the further problem of begging the question in favour subjectivism and non-cognitivism.
From wikipedia:
Now Plato and his students had an explicit definition they agreed upon, but nonetheless it's clearly NOT what their minds understood 'man' to be, not really what they were discussing when they were discussing 'man'. Their definition wasn't really logically pinpointing the concept they had in mind.
It attempts to go down a level from the abstract to the biological. It will be of course be circular if someone then proceeds to define "moral sense" as that sense which is triggered by morality, instead of pointing at examples thereof.
So what is the upshot of of this single datum? That no definition ever captures a concept ? That there is some special problem with the concept of morality ?
Is the biological the right place to go? Is it not question begging to builds that theory into a definition?
Hardly. e.g. the definition of a circle perfectly captures the concept of a circle.
My point was that to merely agree on the definition of a concept doesn't mean our "definition" is correct, that it is properly encapsulating what we wanted it to encapsulate.
No more of a problem than e.g. the concept of beauty. Our brains makes calculations and produces a result. To figure out what we mean by "morality", we need determine what it is that our brains are calculating when they go 'ping' at moral or immoral stuff. This is pretty much tautological.
Since our brains are made of biology, there's no concept we're aware of that can't be reduced to the calculations encoded in our brain's biology.
It was once a mere theory to believe that the human brain is the center of human thought (and therefore all concepts dealt by human thought), but I think it's been proven beyond all reasonable doubt.
Your example shows it is possible to agree on a bad definition. But there is no arbiter or touchstone of correctness that is not based on further discussion and agreement.
That morality-you is whatever your brain thanks it is, subjectivity, is highly contentious and therefore not tautologous .
Hnever, you seem to have confused subjectivism withreductionism. That my concept of perfect circle is encoded into my brain does not make it subjective.
But if you are only offering reductions without subjectivity, you are offering nothing of interest. "The concept of perfectMorality is a concept encoded in your brain"example tells me nothing.
The question remains open as to whether your it's-all-in-the-brain is subjectivism or not.
What I called tautological was the statement "To figure out what we mean by "morality", we need determine what it is that our brains are calculating when they go 'ping' at moral or immoral stuff."
I think your rephrasing "morality is whatever your brain thinks it is" would only work as a proper rephrase if I believed us perfectly self-aware, which as I've said, i don't.
It's you who keep calling me a subjectivist. I don't consider myself one..
Who is asking that question, and why should I care about asking it? I care to learn about morality, and whether my beliefs about it are true or false -- I don't care to know about whether you would call it "subjectivism" or not.