komponisto comments on Making History Available - Less Wrong

49 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 31 August 2007 07:52PM

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Comment author: arundelo 12 November 2011 05:54:18PM 1 point [-]
Ludwig van Beethoven 1770-1827
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart 1756-1791
Johann Sebastian Bach 1685-1750
Richard Wagner 1813-1883
Joseph Haydn 1732-1809
George Frideric Handel 1685-1759
Igor Stravinsky 1882-1971
Claude Debussy 1862-1918
Franz Liszt 1811-1886
Franz Schubert 1797-1828
Robert Schumann 1810-1856
Hector Berlioz 1803-1869
Arnold Schoenberg 1874-1951
Johannes Brahms 1833-1897
Frédéric Chopin 1810-1849
Claudio Monteverdi 1567-1643
Giuseppe Verdi 1813-1901
Felix Mendelssohn 1809-1847
Carl Maria von Weber 1786-1826
Christoph Willibald Gluck 1714-1787
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Thomas Simpson 1710-1761
John Hothby 1410-1487
Marbrianus de Orto 1460-1529
Joannes Gallus fl. 15xx
Mattheus le Maistre 1505-1577
Comment author: NihilCredo 12 November 2011 08:33:35PM *  2 points [-]

Is there a relatively simple explanation for the predominance of Germans and Austrians in this period? Obviously you couldn't expect many great Norwegian or Mongolian composers, because of demographical or logistical reasons, but for example I see no Britons and few Frenchmen in the list. Which differences in musical education and culture could have brought relatively similar countries to have such vastly dissimilar results?

Comment author: komponisto 12 November 2011 09:19:44PM 0 points [-]

Is there a relatively simple explanation for the predominance of Germans and Austrians in this period?

Yes. The period itself is essentially defined that way. That is, Germans and Austrians (and those influenced by them) wrote the history of music, and defined the "core period" as precisely that period when they happened to dominate the scene.

Comment author: gwern 12 November 2011 09:40:59PM 1 point [-]

That is, Germans and Austrians (and those influenced by them) wrote the history of music

This is, of course, a fully general counter-argument: any time someone points to a cluster, you can say 'well those and those influenced by them wrote the history so of course we see a cluster'.

For those who don't accept this fully general counter-argument, Murray considered precisely this national/linguistic argument about bias and examined sources written in a foreign language - eg. what did the Japanese textbooks have to say about German music? He found that this corrective did change rankings and scores... for literature. pg 486:

Histories and biographical dictionaries of Western literature are much more affected by the language of the author than are sources for Western music art and visual art, and for an obvious reason. To repeat the point made in Chapter 5: A German can listen to a work by Vivaldi as easily as he can listen to one by Bach, and an Englishman can look at a painting by Monet as easily as one by Constable. The same cannot be said of literature, because of the language barrier. German historians of literature give markedly more attention to German authors than others, English historians to English authors, and so on. It is not just a matter of national chauvinism. Spanish historians of literature give more attention to New World literature written in Spanish than do historians of other nationalities.

To quote his longer discussion in chapter 5:

National chauvinism within the West remains a problem. Works purporting to cover all of the Western world are skewed toward the nationality of the author. For example, British art historians tend to give more space to Constable and Turner than Italian art historians do, and French historians of philosophy tend to include French thinkers that hardly anyone else mentions.

An examination of these tendencies reveals that the effect of chauvinistic tendencies is minor to begin with and eliminated if the sources come from a mix of nations. Therefore the inventories for the West (visual arts, music, literature, and philosophy) employ sources that have been balanced among the major European nations (Britain, France, Germany, Italy, and Spain) plus the United States and a scattering of other nations ( Japan, Argentina, Denmark). A number of the compilations are also the product of multinational teams. Examination revealed that the effect of chauvinistic tendencies for most of the inventories were minor to begin with and eliminated by using sources from a mix of nations. The exception was literature. A German can listen to a work byVivaldi as easily as he can listen to one by Bach, and an Englishman can look at a painting by Monet as easily as one by Constable. The same cannot be said of literature, because of the language barrier. German historians of literature give disproportionate attention to German and Austrian authors, English historians to English and American authors, and so on. The selection of significant figures and computation of their index scores were therefore based exclusively on sources not written in the language of the author in question (e.g., Thackeray’s selection as a significant figure and his index score are based exclusively on sources not written in English).

Comment author: komponisto 12 November 2011 09:58:02PM *  1 point [-]

To be clear, my argument wasn't directed against Murray, but at his sources. I don't doubt that Murray more or less correctly measured what he was trying to measure (whether or not that measurement has whatever significance he attributes to it, I don't know; I haven't read his book).

My real interest is in "debunking" the notion of the "common-practice period"; I would instead prefer to call the period in question the "Germanic period" or something similar. It isn't really a question of quality: personally, I happen to agree that there is something special about Viennese classicism (i.e. Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven) but I wouldn't assign a similar specialness to Pachelbel and Reger while leaving out Gesualdo and Boulez.

ETA: Also, to be clear, my claim isn't that German-and-Austrian-influenced historians unfairly leave out or devalue other composers from the period 1600-1900; it's that they elevate that particular period itself to an unjustifiably high status relative to other periods (which in my view has hindered the development of music theory).

Comment author: NihilCredo 13 November 2011 12:57:45AM 2 points [-]

Well, why did non-German historians go along with it, then?