Eugine_Nier comments on Stranger Than History - Less Wrong
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I can appeal to negative externalities at this point, and I have evidence for them too.
Such as?
I can certainly list negative consequences of the false belief being widespread (and "official"). For example, currently companies must either hire unqualified people or risk being accused to racism and/or sexism since they're workplace ratios don't match those of the general population. People attempting to create alternate accreditation systems regularly get sued on disparate impact grounds.
Companies are not forced to hire literally unqualified people: Myth 10
Btw, AA is a terrible example of creeping progressivism/ir rationality.
Its not obviously irrational, since there are rational arguments on both sides.
It's not a darling of the left, as some self identified liberals don't actually like it.
It's not universal feature of modern liberal democracies -it is mostly an issue in the US.
It's not obviously harmful: the US, with its AA , has higher per capita GDP than Western countries without it.
EDIT And some companies adopt similar policies voluntarily.
However, if they get sued, the burned of proof is on them to show that the people they didn't hire are in fact unqualified. This is hard to do to the court's satisfaction, especially if one gets a left wing judge. Furthermore, it will cost you a lot of money and bad publicity even if you win.
And yet neither you nor anyone else in this thread have presented any in favor of AA.
A perhaps more salient point to make here is whether or not "qualified" includes opportunity cost. Take recent firefighting anti-discrimination court cases as an example. The legally approved way to conduct promotion testing is to pass over 90% of the people, and then randomly select from everyone who passed. The legally disapproved way is to test everyone, keep the scores as numbers, sort them, and promote from the top of the list going down.
If you imagine hiring or promotion decisions as binary- "are we going to promote Bob or not"- the first view of qualification makes some sense. Bob doesn't have anything obviously wrong with him, so sure, we could promote Bob. If you imagine hiring or promotion decisions as multi-optional- "which of these firefighters are we going to promote"- then you're making n choose 2 pairwise comparisons. Is Bob a better or worse candidate than Tom? Joe? Sue? Under the second view, there isn't really such a thing as 'qualified'; there's the 'best candidate' and the 'not best candidates.'
(This maps pretty clearly onto whether you view the promotion decision from the employee's point of view- did I get promoted or not- or the employer's point of view- who should I promote.)
No, quite wrong:
Now in addition, the court did say,
But if they believed that a candidate with a better score was (ceteris paribus) a better candidate, they would presumably have no problem with this. Remember that people who want you to use AA probably won't trust your judgment alone. (ETA ceteris)
Which part of my statements specifically are you claiming is wrong?
I think you have the causation backwards here. Because they have a problem with this, they decide that the candidate with the better score is not a better candidate. If you would like to take a look at the tests yourself, they're here.
First,
I don't know what you're talking about here, but I just quoted such a decision explicitly calling it illegal to use a particular test pass/fail. Because the court explicitly didn't trust the test.
It looks to me like you assume everyone does trust the test to do something other than hurt minorities. Otherwise you wouldn't need to speculate about motives. In general, if someone wants you to improve minority representation, you can assume they don't trust your personal judgment - and if you're using tests, they don't trust you to judge the value of the tests. Should they? Should we believe these written tests produce better firefighters, based on the available evidence?
I don't think this is true. The doctrine of disparate impact says that your personal judgement is irrelevant -- you MUST achieve something resembling proportionate representation regardless of anything (other than a demonstratable business need). It tests for outcomes, not intentions.
I mean they don't trust your personal judgment of what constitutes "demonstrable business need". Either that or they suspect you have conscious motives beyond business need.
OK, we disagree about motive. Did you notice you were objectively wrong about the reason you gave for your speculation? Or that I got downvoted after pointing this out?
I'm still confused by this part. By 'legally approved', I'm referring to the state of things in, say, Chicago, and doing decisions by lottery is an easy way to satisfy both disparate impact and disparate treatment requirements.
By 'legally disapproved,' it sounds to me like the part you quoted is obvious that this is disapproved. But let's take a closer look at the actual decision (copied from a pdf, so there may be errors caused by my reformatting):
What does this say? In effect, that any test which has different score distributions for different races is guilty until proven innocent. They go on, in sections II and III, to discuss the numbers and conclusions of the calculations.
However, the general cognitive factor exists and differs by race, and will show up on almost any cognitive test. As a result, every test is guilty.* This is the reverse of good sense- the military has done copious research to show that, for every job, g is beneficial (see here for discussion, references to other research, and so on), and the only question is how beneficial.
*They imply that if the Ricci history had been different- that is, the city had promoted the white firefighters on the basis of a rank-ordered written test, and then the minority firefighters had sued on disparate impact grounds, the minority firefighters would have lost because the city had put in sufficient effort to validate the test- but that doesn't seem like the sort of thing that should be taken on faith. Indeed, one of the arguments in the decision,
is responded to by:
The only two possibilities the court considers is that either the minorities all got really unlucky on test day (stupendously unlikely, as they correctly calculate) or the city is discriminating against them; the possibility that they might not be as good at doing the job (and thus not as good at taking the test) is assumed to not be the case.
If the US Census Bureau has changed its hiring practices then I may be wrong. But after the initial ruling for Chicago and two rulings for NY, they were still ranking potential new-hires in every area by scores on a basic skills test. The Bureau tailored this test to the set of entry-level Census positions.
Now the last quote in the parent certainly looks disturbing. But that decision emphatically did not give a blanket endorsement of a cut-off followed by a lottery, because it found them liable for exactly that procedure. More specifically, it found them guilty of stupidity or deception for setting a "passing score" of 65 and then failing anyone who made less than 89.
Like every other source, the parent has the court say:
It would appear that the court and the people who wrote the law do not share your view of this particular test's effectiveness. Perhaps you should try to convince them.
The US govt passed legislation that no one could argue for?
I think Eugine is arguing that they passed legislation for reasons that are not rational.
I am sorry, do you consider your link to be evidence? It is a piece of handwaving propaganda from a site called "understandingprejudice.org" that doesn't even talk about what's happening in real life, it just mumbles about ways that AA might be interpreted.
You may have heard of a country called India, which had a racism problem that seems worse than the American one, and which attempted to counteract it with affirmative action, beginning over a century ago. The opponents of AA have had their predictions validated, and the proponents of AA have mostly had their predictions disconfirmed, by the Indian experience.
Can you elaborate? I can speculate, but I don't actually know much about India with regards to this problem.
Sure. Here's an article from the Economist, but Thomas Sowell also wrote a book about the issue called Affirmative Action Around the World. I should also note that the national reservation system is not quite a century old yet, but reservation systems of some sort have existed for longer.
I should note that I am a fan of the policy that 'affirmative action' originally described- that is, taking action to affirm the government's commitment to meritocracy over bias, in order to counteract the self-fulfilling prophecy of people not applying because they don't expect to be hired or promoted on racial grounds- and am a strong opponent of reservation systems that 'affirmative action' is now used to describe. Officially, reservation systems are illegal in the US- but it's hard to see how one should interpret 'disparate impact' any other way. ('Disparate treatment' is the American word for anti-meritocratic bias, and so American systems have to be a tortured mess that is not too meritocratic (or it's racist) or too anti-meritocratic (or it's racist).)
A handful of claims:
(On this subject, reading Sotomayor's questioning during affirmative action cases that come before the Supreme Court is an... interesting experience.)
(One weird quirk of psychology, here: suppose there are 10 slots, and 100 applicants, 10% of which are Dalit, so one of the slots is reserved for a Dalit. If the top Dalit scores 20th best on the test, numbers 10 through 19 all feel as though they have been deprived by the Dalit taking the 10th slot, even though number 10 is the only person actually deprived.)
The Economist article doesn't discuss this directly, but others (that I don't have time to find now) do. There's a 'creamy layer' provision to try to prevent the richest of the Other Backwards Castes from benefiting (to convert to an American example, if your parents are millionaires, you probably don't need AA consideration even if you're black) but this does not apply to the Scheduled Castes (Dalits). The hypothetical highest scoring Dalit mentioned earlier almost certainly comes from a rich Dalit family, and by looking at the subdivision within caste of the various beneficiaries of reservations it's been shown that the majority come from the SCs that were already privileged within the SCs.
Thankyou for that information. Note that I am arguing against the proposition. "The world is getting more irrational, which we can tell from the rise of affirmative action, which is clearly irrational.".
I don't have any strong commitment to AA. I only need to argue that it is not clearly irrational. It may nonetheless be mistaken in subtle way that takes decades of empirical evidence to detect.
What's irrational is the belief (or rather alief) that anyone arguing that the cause of the observed differences in intelligence by race isn't caused by white racism (or for that matter anyone pointing out said difference who doesn't immediately attribute it to white racism) is an EVIL RACIST. AA is just one consequence of this irrationality.
It's not obvious 2+2=5 irrationality, since there are arguments on both sides. You are effectively calling people irrational for disagreeing with you.
Nothing, outside mathematics is obvious 2+2=5 irrational. Near as I can tell, AA appears to be pretty close to flat-earther irrational. You keep saying there are arguments on both sides, but seem rather short on arguments for yours.
I'm not the only person on the planet with Google. If you type in "arguments for affirmative action" , you'll find them.
I'm aware of the standard arguments for AA, I'm also aware of arguments for the flatness of the earth. I find both sets of arguments about equally rational. If you have a specific argument that you think is more rational, state it and we can analyze it.
Google doesn't know which of those arguments make any sense at all and which are complete bollocks, so locating the former specifically isn't that trivial.
South Africa, 1994. For the previous several decades, the government policy has been something called Apartheid; which can be briefly summarised as, the white people get all the nice stuff, the coloured people get okay stuff, and black people get pretty much the stuff no-one else wants, including (for by far the majority) severely substandard education specifically designed to prevent them from having the mental tools to escape their economic dead-end. The system is maintained partially by the fact that 'all the nice stuff' includes the right to vote.
Recently, the government has caved in and allowed everyone to vote. Predictably, they are voted out and a new government is voted in, determined to undo the damage of Apartheid. They face, of course, the problem that most of the white people in the workforce are well-educated and fairly well-off; while most of the black people are not doing so well on either front. (Oh, sure, there's plenty of educated black people - generally ones who could afford to be educated overseas - but they're a tiny proportion in a vast sea of people). By and large, the white minority is in a position to continue to hold an economic superiority over the black majority for generations, unless something is done to redress the balance.
In such circumstances, would you think that a temporary bout of Affirmative Action would be a rational response by the new government?
Ignoring for the moment the question of genetic differences in intelligence, the fundamental problem here is that the blacks are less educated (and less a lot of other things related to education) than whites. These problems are not getting resolved quickly and until they are it makes sense for the white minority to be in an economically superior position. Otherwise, you'll wind up with an advanced economic system manged by people who aren't qualified to manage it. Look at what happened to Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) to see where that leads.
Note, however, if your only goal is to redress the power balance between whites and blacks, Zimbabwe did in fact solve that problem, i.e., blacks are now being oppressed by fellow blacks rather than whites. Also the economy has been destroyed, so the conditions for everyone involved are much worse.
Also: companies in countries without AA have been known to adopt ethnic monitoring policies voluntarily.
Really, if AA is the most broken thing about progressivism, it's not all that broken.
Really? You would need a really, really high effect of affirmitative action to be stronger than all the other economic effects combined.
In mindkilled enviroments people make arguments that they would never make if they would look at the issue with a statistical perspective. This is one of those arguments.
That doesn't mean that it's not an effect of progressivism.
If US AA had weak negative effect, as you claim, that would match the data.
If US AA had a weak positive effect, that would match the data.
If US AA had no effect,that would match the data.
But you didn't appeal to the data. You appealed to a single data point.
In any subject that's not politically charged, people don't argue that they can see a weak effect in a single data point.
In health science a lot of observational studies that gather way more data don't replicate. You can't simple throw out everything we learned in statistics out of the window just because we are talking about a political charged issue.
I am not claiming to see an effect. I am claiming not to see a stro.ng effect. I have stated that I am neutral on AA. I have also stated that that even if AA has a weak negative effect, that proves nothing about the wider points. To do that,I have entertain the hypothesis that AA has a negative effect. Are you still going to call that mindkilled?
That's not what you claimed before . .. before you claimed that it was not obviously harmful
. Now you are claiming that it's not strongly harmful, which is a much easier claim to defend. Changing your position is perfectly fine, but there is more than one way to go about doing it. If you say "I now see that I overstated my case," that's one way. On the other hand, if you just do it without acknowledgment, it strongly suggests to me that you are in battle-mode so to speak, i.e. that you are mind-killed.
Which again shows why it's a bad idea to assess peoples' rationality based on their agreement with one or another side of a politically controversial issue. For one thing, most people are too mind-killed to determine which side is the rational side. (I, of course, am an exception :)).
For another, most people choose their beliefs on these issues based on what they are supposed to believe and what favors their interests. Even if they come down on the rational side, they are very likely not doing it for rational reasons. (Again, I, of course, am an exception :)).
The problem is that you shouldn't expect to see an effect in the case that a meaningful effect exists that isn't outlandishly high.
I don't see the weather in Wyoming at the moment. I don't know whether it's sunny or cloudy. I wouldn't make an argument based on my ignorance about the californian weather in most cases.
I would have probably noticed if Yellowstone went of, but apart from that the fact that I don't know the weather is not meaningful information from which to draw conclusions.
It might be possible that someone did study the issue academically and investigated how affirmative action legislation that passed in different states and countries at different times has an effect on the economy.
That's the point. The argument that you made proves nothing at all about the wider points. In political discussions people frequently make arguments that prove nothing at all because they aren't focusing on the arguments but on the conclusions they want to draw.
I don't have many stakes in whether or not to have affirmative action legislation. I do have stakes into not making statistical unsound arguments when discussing politics.
I know a single country that used policy X at time Y and the country is not collapsed as a result is not a very useful argument. Of course I'm exaggerating when I say "collapsed" and the US having a worse economy than Western Europe wouldn't be "collapse", but it still goes into that direction.
The argument I made was that AA proves nothing about the wider point namely the allegation of growing irrationality. Since that argument is explicitly meta, it is not supposed to address the wider point at object level.
Let's say AA is an effect of progessivism,in those countries that have it. What follows from that about any rising tide of irrationalaity?
I agree, and this is why I think it's sketchy (to put it politely) to argue that people are more (or less ) rational now than some point in the past because of greater (or lesser) acceptance of some political viewpoint.
Besides which, even if there were overwhelming proof that support of affirmative action is rational or irrational, I'm pretty confident that most people would choose their belief based on (1) what they are supposed to believe; and (2) what favors their interests.
In short, the vast majority of people are irrational when in "far mode" and always have been.