TheAncientGeek comments on Stranger Than History - Less Wrong

52 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 01 September 2007 06:57PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (329)

Sort By: Old

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 30 March 2014 10:11:31AM *  3 points [-]

Companies are not forced to hire literally unqualified people: Myth 10

Btw, AA is a terrible example of creeping progressivism/ir rationality.

Its not obviously irrational, since there are rational arguments on both sides.

It's not a darling of the left, as some self identified liberals don't actually like it.

It's not universal feature of modern liberal democracies -it is mostly an issue in the US.

It's not obviously harmful: the US, with its AA , has higher per capita GDP than Western countries without it.

EDIT And some companies adopt similar policies voluntarily.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 30 March 2014 07:19:06PM 2 points [-]

Companies are not forced to hire literally unqualified people

However, if they get sued, the burned of proof is on them to show that the people they didn't hire are in fact unqualified. This is hard to do to the court's satisfaction, especially if one gets a left wing judge. Furthermore, it will cost you a lot of money and bad publicity even if you win.

Its not obviously irrational, since there are rational arguments on both sides.

And yet neither you nor anyone else in this thread have presented any in favor of AA.

Comment author: Vaniver 31 March 2014 04:55:07PM 4 points [-]

However, if they get sued, the burned of proof is on them to show that the people they didn't hire are in fact unqualified.

A perhaps more salient point to make here is whether or not "qualified" includes opportunity cost. Take recent firefighting anti-discrimination court cases as an example. The legally approved way to conduct promotion testing is to pass over 90% of the people, and then randomly select from everyone who passed. The legally disapproved way is to test everyone, keep the scores as numbers, sort them, and promote from the top of the list going down.

If you imagine hiring or promotion decisions as binary- "are we going to promote Bob or not"- the first view of qualification makes some sense. Bob doesn't have anything obviously wrong with him, so sure, we could promote Bob. If you imagine hiring or promotion decisions as multi-optional- "which of these firefighters are we going to promote"- then you're making n choose 2 pairwise comparisons. Is Bob a better or worse candidate than Tom? Joe? Sue? Under the second view, there isn't really such a thing as 'qualified'; there's the 'best candidate' and the 'not best candidates.'

(This maps pretty clearly onto whether you view the promotion decision from the employee's point of view- did I get promoted or not- or the employer's point of view- who should I promote.)

Comment author: hairyfigment 31 March 2014 06:34:51PM *  0 points [-]

No, quite wrong:

the New York City Fire Department used written examinations with discriminatory effects and little relationship to the job of a firefighter (emphasis added)

The Court found that the City’s use of the two written examinations as an initial pass/fail hurdle in the selection of firefighters was unlawful under Title VII.

Now in addition, the court did say,

the City’s use of applicants’ written examination scores (in combination with their scores on a physical abilities test) to rank-order and process applicants for further consideration for employment violated Title VII.

But if they believed that a candidate with a better score was (ceteris paribus) a better candidate, they would presumably have no problem with this. Remember that people who want you to use AA probably won't trust your judgment alone. (ETA ceteris)

Comment author: Vaniver 31 March 2014 07:15:37PM 2 points [-]

No, quite wrong:

Which part of my statements specifically are you claiming is wrong?

But if they believed that a candidate with a better score was (ceteris paribus) a better candidate, they would presumably have no problem with this.

I think you have the causation backwards here. Because they have a problem with this, they decide that the candidate with the better score is not a better candidate. If you would like to take a look at the tests yourself, they're here.

Comment author: hairyfigment 31 March 2014 07:49:12PM 1 point [-]

Which part of my statements specifically are you claiming is wrong?

First,

Take recent firefighting anti-discrimination court cases as an example. The legally approved way to conduct promotion testing is to pass over 90% of the people, and then randomly select from everyone who passed.

I don't know what you're talking about here, but I just quoted such a decision explicitly calling it illegal to use a particular test pass/fail. Because the court explicitly didn't trust the test.

It looks to me like you assume everyone does trust the test to do something other than hurt minorities. Otherwise you wouldn't need to speculate about motives. In general, if someone wants you to improve minority representation, you can assume they don't trust your personal judgment - and if you're using tests, they don't trust you to judge the value of the tests. Should they? Should we believe these written tests produce better firefighters, based on the available evidence?

Comment author: Lumifer 31 March 2014 07:56:08PM -1 points [-]

In general, if someone wants you to improve minority representation, you can assume they don't trust your personal judgment

I don't think this is true. The doctrine of disparate impact says that your personal judgement is irrelevant -- you MUST achieve something resembling proportionate representation regardless of anything (other than a demonstratable business need). It tests for outcomes, not intentions.

Comment author: hairyfigment 31 March 2014 08:08:13PM -1 points [-]

I mean they don't trust your personal judgment of what constitutes "demonstrable business need". Either that or they suspect you have conscious motives beyond business need.

Comment author: Lumifer 31 March 2014 08:22:05PM *  -2 points [-]

You are assuming there are no significant race- or sex-based differences.

For example, let's say I run a business and I like to hire smart people. Basically, I prefer high-IQ people to low-IQ people. Given that the average black IQ is about one standard deviation below the average white IQ which is lower than average East Asian IQ, I would end up with employing relatively more Asian and white people and relatively less black people.

This is very straightforward case of disparate impact. What is it about my personal judgement that "they" should not trust?

Comment author: hairyfigment 31 March 2014 08:25:28PM 1 point [-]

Are you being serious? Did you notice how you went from "business need" to "like to hire smart people" to "prefer high-IQ"?

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 01 April 2014 09:04:35AM *  -2 points [-]

Are "you" using race as a proxy for IQ, using actual IQ, or using evidence of domain relevant knowledge?

I notice that real world employers tend to emphasise the last. Rightly, because it avoids the Spolskyan problem of "smart, but doesn't get things done"

Comment author: hairyfigment 02 April 2014 05:52:21AM 1 point [-]

OK, we disagree about motive. Did you notice you were objectively wrong about the reason you gave for your speculation? Or that I got downvoted after pointing this out?

Comment author: Vaniver 02 April 2014 04:57:30PM *  3 points [-]

Did you notice you were objectively wrong about the reason you gave for your speculation?

I'm still confused by this part. By 'legally approved', I'm referring to the state of things in, say, Chicago, and doing decisions by lottery is an easy way to satisfy both disparate impact and disparate treatment requirements.

By 'legally disapproved,' it sounds to me like the part you quoted is obvious that this is disapproved. But let's take a closer look at the actual decision (copied from a pdf, so there may be errors caused by my reformatting):

Before proceeding to the legal analysis, I offer a brief word about the Supreme Court’s recent decision in Ricci v. DeStefano, 129 S. Ct. 2658 (June 29, 2009). I reference Ricci not because the Supreme Court’s ruling controls the outcome in this case; to the contrary, I mention Ricci precisely to point out that it does not. In Ricci, the City of New Haven had set aside the results of a promotional examination, and the Supreme Court confronted the narrow issue of whether New Haven could defend a violation of Title VII’s disparate treatment provision by asserting that its challenged employment action was an attempt to comply with Title VII’s disparate impact provision. The Court held that such a defense is only available when “the employer can demonstrate a strong basis in evidence that, had it not taken the action, it would have been liable under the disparate-impact statute.” Id. at 2664. In contrast, this case presents the entirely separate question of whether Plaintiffs have shown that the City’s use of Exams 7029 and 2043 has actually had a disparate impact upon black and Hispanic applicants for positions as entry-level firefighters. Ricci did not confront that issue.

The Ricci Court concluded that New Haven would not likely have been liable under a disparate impact theory. See id. at 2681. In doing so, the Court relied on the various steps that New Haven took to validate its civil service examination. Id. at 2678-79. It is noteworthy, however, that in this case New York City has taken significantly fewer steps than New Haven took in validating its examination. The relevant teaching of Ricci, in this regard, is that the process of designing employment examinations is complex, requiring consultation with experts and careful consideration of accepted testing standards. As discussed below, these requirements are reflected in federal regulations and existing Second Circuit precedent. This legal authority sets forth a simple principle: municipalities must take adequate measures to ensure that their civil service examinations reliably test the relevant knowledge, skills and abilities that will determine which applicants will best perform their specific public duties.

In rendering this decision, I am aware that the use of multiple-choice examinations is typically intended to apply objective standards to employment decisions. Similarly, I recognize that it is natural to assume that the best performers on an employment test must be the best people for the job. But, the significance of these principles is undermined when an examination is not fair. As Congress recognized in enacting Title VII, when an employment test is not adequately related to the job for which it tests—and when the test adversely affects minority groups—we may not fall back on the notion that better test takers make better employees. The City asks the court to do just that. Regrettably, though, the City did not take sufficient measures to ensure that better performers on its examinations would actually be better firefighters. Accordingly, the court grants the Motions for Summary Judgment and finds that Plaintiffs have established disparate impact liability.

What does this say? In effect, that any test which has different score distributions for different races is guilty until proven innocent. They go on, in sections II and III, to discuss the numbers and conclusions of the calculations.

However, the general cognitive factor exists and differs by race, and will show up on almost any cognitive test. As a result, every test is guilty.* This is the reverse of good sense- the military has done copious research to show that, for every job, g is beneficial (see here for discussion, references to other research, and so on), and the only question is how beneficial.

*They imply that if the Ricci history had been different- that is, the city had promoted the white firefighters on the basis of a rank-ordered written test, and then the minority firefighters had sued on disparate impact grounds, the minority firefighters would have lost because the city had put in sufficient effort to validate the test- but that doesn't seem like the sort of thing that should be taken on faith. Indeed, one of the arguments in the decision,

In essence, the City asks the court to reject Plaintiffs’ statistical significance analysis because it improperly assumes “perfect parity” among groups of people (see Def. PF Mem. 1-3, 5-7)

is responded to by:

First of all, the court rejects the premise that comparison to a standard of equality among groups provides an improper foundation for statistical testing under Title VII. In order to determine whether a particular employment practice has had a disparate impact on a minority group, statistical tests “ask what the results would be for the salient variable . . . if there [had been] no discrimination.” Adams v. Ameritech Servs., Inc. , 231 F.3d 414, 424 (7th Cir. 2000) (emphasis added). To determine what results “would be,” statistical tests properly assume that racial or ethnic groups will perform equally well absent discrimination.

The only two possibilities the court considers is that either the minorities all got really unlucky on test day (stupendously unlikely, as they correctly calculate) or the city is discriminating against them; the possibility that they might not be as good at doing the job (and thus not as good at taking the test) is assumed to not be the case.

Comment author: hairyfigment 04 April 2014 08:48:59AM 1 point [-]

If the US Census Bureau has changed its hiring practices then I may be wrong. But after the initial ruling for Chicago and two rulings for NY, they were still ranking potential new-hires in every area by scores on a basic skills test. The Bureau tailored this test to the set of entry-level Census positions.

Now the last quote in the parent certainly looks disturbing. But that decision emphatically did not give a blanket endorsement of a cut-off followed by a lottery, because it found them liable for exactly that procedure. More specifically, it found them guilty of stupidity or deception for setting a "passing score" of 65 and then failing anyone who made less than 89.

Like every other source, the parent has the court say:

the City did not take sufficient measures to ensure that better performers on its examinations would actually be better firefighters.

It would appear that the court and the people who wrote the law do not share your view of this particular test's effectiveness. Perhaps you should try to convince them.

Comment author: Vaniver 04 April 2014 03:42:44PM 3 points [-]

If the US Census Bureau has changed its hiring practices then I may be wrong.

I am unfamiliar with how the Census Bureau hires; I was talking about the Chicago fire department, which I am fairly confident does use lotteries in its hiring and promotion decisions.

It would appear that the court and the people who wrote the law do not share your view of this particular test's effectiveness. Perhaps you should try to convince them.

If they won't listen to the psychometricians about g, why would I expect them to listen to me?

To clarify, the difference between my view and the court's view is that I assume that the universally replicated finding of intelligence differences between races will show up on basically any test, because that's what universally replicated means. Thus, unless the disparate impact is more than would be predicted by the relevant intelligence cutoff, then the burden to show disparate treatment should fall on those claiming discrimination.

The court's view is that if there is any statistically significant difference between races (which is more strict that the previous 4/5ths rule), the burden of demonstrating differences in racial intelligence and the relevance of intelligence to the job (combined, thankfully, into one 'validate the test for the particular job you're hiring for') falls on the maker of the test. But this falls on the maker of every test, making testing much more costly (and thus much less used) than it has it be, with the resulting efficiency losses. If you would like to use an extensively researched and validated IQ test for your narrow position (perhaps only one person will have this job at your company), that's not possible- you have to pay for experts to design a test for every position you would like to use a test for and validate that it works for that position, despite copious research demonstrating that a test that targets g specifically will be comparably effective to a specifically-designed test that targets performance on that job.

Comment author: EHeller 04 April 2014 04:23:03PM -1 points [-]

But this falls on the maker of every test, making testing much more costly (and thus much less used) than it has it be

So every job I've ever applied for required tests, and all of them looked more like general intelligence tests than specific (the standard brain teasers about buckets of water, geometry questions,etc all for statistical programming jobs). With the exception of one insurance company (who disguised their geometry questions as programming questions), none of these companies tried to pretend these were directly applicable to job performance. To my knowledge, none of these companies have been sued.

If anything, my experience is that testing is overused. A recent hire I wanted (who I've worked with before, and who is very competent at exactly what we need) was refused on the basis poor performance on two tests. I've consulted for several companies that have expressed that they hired me as a consultant because their HR's testing procedures have made staffing too inflexible.

Comment author: hairyfigment 05 April 2014 12:01:29AM *  0 points [-]

So you claim these courts (and lawmakers) all know this research on g, and you can't imagine any better way to present it?

Anyway, you said:

Take recent firefighting anti-discrimination court cases as an example. The legally approved way to conduct promotion testing is to pass over 90% of the people, and then randomly select from everyone who passed. The legally disapproved way is to test everyone, keep the scores as numbers, sort them, and promote from the top of the list going down.

This is false. The first is almost exactly what the Chicago fire department got slapped for doing, and the courts likewise said it would illegal for the NY department. The second is what the US Census Bureau did, and appears perfectly legal due to their test intuitively matching the jobs. This makes no mention of it, instead attacking the Bureau's use of a binary cut-off.

The court's explicit motive explains all this quite well. For pointing this out I lost around 50 karma.

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 01 April 2014 09:43:21AM -2 points [-]

The US govt passed legislation that no one could argue for?

Comment author: ChristianKl 01 April 2014 10:47:40AM 1 point [-]

The US govt passed legislation that no one could argue for?

I think Eugine is arguing that they passed legislation for reasons that are not rational.

Comment author: Lumifer 31 March 2014 04:11:12PM 4 points [-]

Companies are not forced to hire literally unqualified people: Myth 10](http://www.understandingprejudice.org/readroom/articles/affirm.htm)

I am sorry, do you consider your link to be evidence? It is a piece of handwaving propaganda from a site called "understandingprejudice.org" that doesn't even talk about what's happening in real life, it just mumbles about ways that AA might be interpreted.

Comment author: Vaniver 31 March 2014 04:48:08PM 4 points [-]

It's not universal feature of modern liberal democracies -it is mostly an issue in the US.

You may have heard of a country called India, which had a racism problem that seems worse than the American one, and which attempted to counteract it with affirmative action, beginning over a century ago. The opponents of AA have had their predictions validated, and the proponents of AA have mostly had their predictions disconfirmed, by the Indian experience.

Comment author: Nornagest 31 March 2014 05:09:26PM 5 points [-]

Can you elaborate? I can speculate, but I don't actually know much about India with regards to this problem.

Comment author: Vaniver 31 March 2014 05:35:36PM *  11 points [-]

Sure. Here's an article from the Economist, but Thomas Sowell also wrote a book about the issue called Affirmative Action Around the World. I should also note that the national reservation system is not quite a century old yet, but reservation systems of some sort have existed for longer.

I should note that I am a fan of the policy that 'affirmative action' originally described- that is, taking action to affirm the government's commitment to meritocracy over bias, in order to counteract the self-fulfilling prophecy of people not applying because they don't expect to be hired or promoted on racial grounds- and am a strong opponent of reservation systems that 'affirmative action' is now used to describe. Officially, reservation systems are illegal in the US- but it's hard to see how one should interpret 'disparate impact' any other way. ('Disparate treatment' is the American word for anti-meritocratic bias, and so American systems have to be a tortured mess that is not too meritocratic (or it's racist) or too anti-meritocratic (or it's racist).)

A handful of claims:

  • AA is a temporary fix / AA is a permanent fixture of society:

It proposed that the policy exist for a decade to see what progress would be made, but without spelling out how to measure it. The provision has been renewed without fuss every decade since.

(On this subject, reading Sotomayor's questioning during affirmative action cases that come before the Supreme Court is an... interesting experience.)

  • AA will not lead to loss of quality / AA will increase corruption and decrease meritocracy:

Worse, the policy has probably helped to make India’s bureaucracy increasingly rotten—and it was already one of the country’s greater burdens. An obsession with making the ranks of public servants representative, not capable, makes it too hard to sack dysfunctional or corrupt bureaucrats. Nor will this improve. In December 2012 parliament’s upper house passed a bill ordering that bureaucrats be promoted not on merit alone, but to lift the backward castes faster.

  • AA will decrease resentment between groups / AA will increase resentment between groups:

For secondary schooling state funds help to encourage more Dalit and tribal children into classrooms; the effect of setting aside special places in colleges and university is to lower the marks needed by Dalit and other backward applicants.

That causes resentment among general applicants, who vie for extremely competitive spots in medical, business and other colleges.

(One weird quirk of psychology, here: suppose there are 10 slots, and 100 applicants, 10% of which are Dalit, so one of the slots is reserved for a Dalit. If the top Dalit scores 20th best on the test, numbers 10 through 19 all feel as though they have been deprived by the Dalit taking the 10th slot, even though number 10 is the only person actually deprived.)

  • AA will lead to homogeneity and acceptance / AA will lead to heteogeneity and perpetuate divisions.

Pratap Bhanu Mehta, an academic at the Centre for Policy Research in Delhi, favours affirmative action but concludes that a policy focused on distribution of limited state resources is bound to fail. “The current system is not about equal opportunity, it is about distributing the spoils of state power strictly according to caste, thus perpetuating it”, he says.

  • The benefits will go to the poorest and most deserving / The benefits will go to the richest and least deserving.

The Economist article doesn't discuss this directly, but others (that I don't have time to find now) do. There's a 'creamy layer' provision to try to prevent the richest of the Other Backwards Castes from benefiting (to convert to an American example, if your parents are millionaires, you probably don't need AA consideration even if you're black) but this does not apply to the Scheduled Castes (Dalits). The hypothetical highest scoring Dalit mentioned earlier almost certainly comes from a rich Dalit family, and by looking at the subdivision within caste of the various beneficiaries of reservations it's been shown that the majority come from the SCs that were already privileged within the SCs.

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 01 April 2014 08:37:50AM *  0 points [-]

Thankyou for that information. Note that I am arguing against the proposition. "The world is getting more irrational, which we can tell from the rise of affirmative action, which is clearly irrational.".

I don't have any strong commitment to AA. I only need to argue that it is not clearly irrational. It may nonetheless be mistaken in subtle way that takes decades of empirical evidence to detect.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 03 April 2014 05:43:04AM 0 points [-]

What's irrational is the belief (or rather alief) that anyone arguing that the cause of the observed differences in intelligence by race isn't caused by white racism (or for that matter anyone pointing out said difference who doesn't immediately attribute it to white racism) is an EVIL RACIST. AA is just one consequence of this irrationality.

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 03 April 2014 07:28:58AM 1 point [-]

It's not obvious 2+2=5 irrationality, since there are arguments on both sides. You are effectively calling people irrational for disagreeing with you.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 04 April 2014 03:04:03AM -2 points [-]

Nothing, outside mathematics is obvious 2+2=5 irrational. Near as I can tell, AA appears to be pretty close to flat-earther irrational. You keep saying there are arguments on both sides, but seem rather short on arguments for yours.

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 05 April 2014 02:02:11PM 0 points [-]

I'm not the only person on the planet with Google. If you type in "arguments for affirmative action" , you'll find them.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 06 April 2014 06:27:33AM -2 points [-]

I'm aware of the standard arguments for AA, I'm also aware of arguments for the flatness of the earth. I find both sets of arguments about equally rational. If you have a specific argument that you think is more rational, state it and we can analyze it.

Comment author: [deleted] 06 April 2014 08:46:56AM *  2 points [-]

Google doesn't know which of those arguments make any sense at all and which are complete bollocks, so locating the former specifically isn't that trivial.

Comment author: CCC 05 April 2014 07:01:06PM 3 points [-]

Near as I can tell, AA appears to be pretty close to flat-earther irrational. You keep saying there are arguments on both sides, but seem rather short on arguments for yours.

South Africa, 1994. For the previous several decades, the government policy has been something called Apartheid; which can be briefly summarised as, the white people get all the nice stuff, the coloured people get okay stuff, and black people get pretty much the stuff no-one else wants, including (for by far the majority) severely substandard education specifically designed to prevent them from having the mental tools to escape their economic dead-end. The system is maintained partially by the fact that 'all the nice stuff' includes the right to vote.

Recently, the government has caved in and allowed everyone to vote. Predictably, they are voted out and a new government is voted in, determined to undo the damage of Apartheid. They face, of course, the problem that most of the white people in the workforce are well-educated and fairly well-off; while most of the black people are not doing so well on either front. (Oh, sure, there's plenty of educated black people - generally ones who could afford to be educated overseas - but they're a tiny proportion in a vast sea of people). By and large, the white minority is in a position to continue to hold an economic superiority over the black majority for generations, unless something is done to redress the balance.

In such circumstances, would you think that a temporary bout of Affirmative Action would be a rational response by the new government?

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 06 April 2014 06:45:57AM 1 point [-]

They face, of course, the problem that most of the white people in the workforce are well-educated and fairly well-off; while most of the black people are not doing so well on either front. (Oh, sure, there's plenty of educated black people - generally ones who could afford to be educated overseas - but they're a tiny proportion in a vast sea of people). By and large, the white minority is in a position to continue to hold an economic superiority over the black majority for generations, unless something is done to redress the balance.

Ignoring for the moment the question of genetic differences in intelligence, the fundamental problem here is that the blacks are less educated (and less a lot of other things related to education) than whites. These problems are not getting resolved quickly and until they are it makes sense for the white minority to be in an economically superior position. Otherwise, you'll wind up with an advanced economic system manged by people who aren't qualified to manage it. Look at what happened to Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) to see where that leads.

Note, however, if your only goal is to redress the power balance between whites and blacks, Zimbabwe did in fact solve that problem, i.e., blacks are now being oppressed by fellow blacks rather than whites. Also the economy has been destroyed, so the conditions for everyone involved are much worse.

Comment author: CCC 06 April 2014 12:19:18PM 0 points [-]

the fundamental problem here is that the blacks are less educated (and less a lot of other things related to education) than whites.

That is a large part of the fundamental problem, yes. A lot of blacks were also:

  • Unable to pay for a proper education
  • Without a house of their own
  • Without ready access to electricity or proper sanitation

And the education problem is made worse by the fact that there were not enough properly qualified teachers in the country to deliver that education to everyone.

And you are right, these problems are not going to get resolved quickly. (It's twenty years later now, and a lot of the problems still haven't been resolved). It's probably going to take two, maybe three generations minimum to get the country back on an even keel again.

But, in short, Apartheid was an incredibly unbalanced system. The inequalities caused and perpetuated during the Apartheid years were massive, dwarfing any possible genetic differences in intelligence. And, in the face of those inequalities, it seems to me that a temporary program of affirmative action (defined as, if there are muliple qualified applicants for a position, bias the selection process in the direction of the black applicants if present) is a reasonable measure to try to counteract those inequalities without sabotaging the country's economy.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 08 April 2014 03:48:45AM *  2 points [-]

Compare apartheid with feudalism. And notice that a lot of countries transitioned away from the latter didn't require AA in favor of commoners.

Comment author: Nornagest 10 April 2014 08:41:08PM *  2 points [-]

Otherwise, you'll wind up with an advanced economic system manged by people who aren't qualified to manage it. Look at what happened to Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) to see where that leads.

I'm not an expert on Zimbabwean history by any means, but this doesn't quite seem to add up. According to World Bank data, Rhodesia/Zimbabwe has lagged sub-Saharan Africa (never mind the rest of the world) in per-capita GDP (measured in constant 2000 dollars) since at least 1960. As you can see from the graph, there's no dramatic discontinuity coinciding with the end of the Bush War; there is a decline over the war years themselves, but I'd attribute that more to the damage done by a markedly nasty civil conflict. It later stops tracking Africa's broader economic performance around 2001, but that timeframe seems to coincide with Robert Mugabe's land redistribution programs and involvement in the Congo War: a specific case of mismanagement by a notorious dictator, twenty years after the changes you're alluding to.

I'd consider this more conclusive if I'd been able to find data going back further. Still, if Rhodesia had qualified as an advanced economy, I'd have expected better than $500 GDP/capita in 1960 -- and if it was the removal of Zimbabwe's white minority's political influence that had screwed everything up, I'd have expected a decline starting around 1978, not the minor increase and quick plateau that we observe.

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 01 April 2014 09:58:17AM 0 points [-]

Also: companies in countries without AA have been known to adopt ethnic monitoring policies voluntarily.

Really, if AA is the most broken thing about progressivism, it's not all that broken.

Comment author: ChristianKl 01 April 2014 10:44:37AM *  4 points [-]

It's not obviously harmful: the US, with its AA , has higher per capita GDP than Western countries without it.

Really? You would need a really, really high effect of affirmitative action to be stronger than all the other economic effects combined.

In mindkilled enviroments people make arguments that they would never make if they would look at the issue with a statistical perspective. This is one of those arguments.

It's not a darling of the left, as some self identified liberals don't actually like it.

That doesn't mean that it's not an effect of progressivism.

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 01 April 2014 11:33:16AM -1 points [-]

If US AA had weak negative effect, as you claim, that would match the data.

If US AA had a weak positive effect, that would match the data.

If US AA had no effect,that would match the data.

Comment author: ChristianKl 01 April 2014 12:07:45PM 2 points [-]

But you didn't appeal to the data. You appealed to a single data point.

In any subject that's not politically charged, people don't argue that they can see a weak effect in a single data point.

In health science a lot of observational studies that gather way more data don't replicate. You can't simple throw out everything we learned in statistics out of the window just because we are talking about a political charged issue.

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 01 April 2014 12:35:40PM *  -1 points [-]

I am not claiming to see an effect. I am claiming not to see a stro.ng effect. I have stated that I am neutral on AA. I have also stated that that even if AA has a weak negative effect, that proves nothing about the wider points. To do that,I have entertain the hypothesis that AA has a negative effect. Are you still going to call that mindkilled?

Comment author: brazil84 01 April 2014 01:50:27PM 3 points [-]

I am claiming not to see a stro.ng effect.

That's not what you claimed before . .. before you claimed that it was not obviously harmful

It's not obviously harmful: the US, with its AA , has higher per capita GDP than Western countries without it.

. Now you are claiming that it's not strongly harmful, which is a much easier claim to defend. Changing your position is perfectly fine, but there is more than one way to go about doing it. If you say "I now see that I overstated my case," that's one way. On the other hand, if you just do it without acknowledgment, it strongly suggests to me that you are in battle-mode so to speak, i.e. that you are mind-killed.

Which again shows why it's a bad idea to assess peoples' rationality based on their agreement with one or another side of a politically controversial issue. For one thing, most people are too mind-killed to determine which side is the rational side. (I, of course, am an exception :)).

For another, most people choose their beliefs on these issues based on what they are supposed to believe and what favors their interests. Even if they come down on the rational side, they are very likely not doing it for rational reasons. (Again, I, of course, am an exception :)).

Comment author: ChristianKl 01 April 2014 01:57:26PM 3 points [-]

I am not claiming to see an effect.

The problem is that you shouldn't expect to see an effect in the case that a meaningful effect exists that isn't outlandishly high.

I don't see the weather in Wyoming at the moment. I don't know whether it's sunny or cloudy. I wouldn't make an argument based on my ignorance about the californian weather in most cases.

I would have probably noticed if Yellowstone went of, but apart from that the fact that I don't know the weather is not meaningful information from which to draw conclusions.

It might be possible that someone did study the issue academically and investigated how affirmative action legislation that passed in different states and countries at different times has an effect on the economy.

that proves nothing about the wider points.

That's the point. The argument that you made proves nothing at all about the wider points. In political discussions people frequently make arguments that prove nothing at all because they aren't focusing on the arguments but on the conclusions they want to draw.

I don't have many stakes in whether or not to have affirmative action legislation. I do have stakes into not making statistical unsound arguments when discussing politics.

I know a single country that used policy X at time Y and the country is not collapsed as a result is not a very useful argument. Of course I'm exaggerating when I say "collapsed" and the US having a worse economy than Western Europe wouldn't be "collapse", but it still goes into that direction.

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 02 April 2014 09:33:09AM 1 point [-]

The argument I made was that AA proves nothing about the wider point namely the allegation of growing irrationality. Since that argument is explicitly meta, it is not supposed to address the wider point at object level.

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 01 April 2014 11:45:47AM -1 points [-]

Let's say AA is an effect of progessivism,in those countries that have it. What follows from that about any rising tide of irrationalaity?

Comment author: brazil84 01 April 2014 12:33:16PM 3 points [-]

In mindkilled enviroments people make arguments that they would never make if they would look at the issue with a statistical perspective. This is one of those arguments.

I agree, and this is why I think it's sketchy (to put it politely) to argue that people are more (or less ) rational now than some point in the past because of greater (or lesser) acceptance of some political viewpoint.

Besides which, even if there were overwhelming proof that support of affirmative action is rational or irrational, I'm pretty confident that most people would choose their belief based on (1) what they are supposed to believe; and (2) what favors their interests.

In short, the vast majority of people are irrational when in "far mode" and always have been.